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Old October 16, 2012, 01:15 PM   #51
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics
There is such a thing as "common sense". It's roughly what would be commonly apparent to someone reasonably well-versed in a topic or field of endeavor.

People often leave out the reasonably well-versed part, and substitute a kind of "I am smart/cool/awesome/tough enough to figure it out without actually knowing anything" attitude. This is often little more than a thin veneer of bluster painted over a surface of raw ignorance.
That is one of the best, most instructive, truest posts I've seen in a good, long while.
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Old October 16, 2012, 01:15 PM   #52
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Quote:
Bob Wright

I have a pretty good concept of how a potential hold-up/car jacking attempt might unfold in my area, none of which invloves an assailant displaying a gun from eight or ten feet away from me and allowing me the luxury of a methodical draw, rotate, thrust and fire technique.
You either misunderstand or mischaracterize the technique's "presentation" as having a methodical draw, which infers slow.

Fast and slow are somewhat relative.

Many good shooters using the modern technique can do the Dozier Drill in 3 seconds. The Dozier Drill consist of starting with the shooter facing away from 5 Pepper Poppers which are 5 yards away. On a random signal the shooter must turn and knock down all 5 targets. Time starts on the signal and ends on the last shot. Three (3) seconds to turn, draw, and fire 5 aimed shots. Part time is 5 seconds. Three seconds is fast, to me.

Bob consider how long it took you to gain the skill you have now with a single action handgun. I am guessing you have practiced for at least one hundred hours? If you put in a couple of dozen hours trying a different technique you could begin to see whether it has some value for you.

I admit I'll never approach the speed of Bob Munden who is an incredible shot with a single action handgun. I think he gets off two shots in under 0.50 seconds. But he does not used a rig for concealed carry.
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Old October 16, 2012, 01:40 PM   #53
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Consider this: I am, or have pumped gas, and am standing beside my Jeep. I am approached by a would be robber/car jacker. He keeps his gun behind his thigh out of my view, then suddenly thrusts his gun in my face. I have not signaled that I am armed, then push aside his gun while drawing and firing one shot, or follow up shots as required.

Push aside the gun, draw your own and take a shot? Good luck with that Dirty Harry. Maybe you should have kept your head on a swivel and avoided the entire scenario in the first place.

This whole thread is rather entertaining.
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Old October 16, 2012, 01:51 PM   #54
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Are these novice or experienced shooters?

A novice shooter will need to be taught all the fundamentals before speed can be safely achieved.

Whenever I take on a new drill, I do it slowly and methodically at first. Once I get the fundamental down, I can work on increasing the speed of the drill.
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Old October 16, 2012, 02:38 PM   #55
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I think there's a difference between common sense and "reason."

A person can sit and ponder a problem, in this case firearms related, and come up with a reasonable solution. In a perfect world, it works just fine. It is perfect at the pistol range, it works well in competition and it brings home the ribbons, the trophies and praise from well-wishers. But it's not a perfect world and the only thing that's wrong here is that in the real world, it lacks common sense.

People frequently make posts about how an automatic pistol must absolutely, positively and without fail, always be carried with the chamber loaded. Why? Because you are (evidently) not expected to have the use of your other hand just when you need it to charge your pistol. Yet, woe unto you if you dare to attempt shooting with just one hand, for all the reasons offered in this and other threads. After all, the target is only eight inches wide, the width of a typical five years old waist level.

Likewise, all of those comments about fast draw, you know, for the walk and draw that all armed encounters begin with, or so I am led to believe. Actually, not many descriptions that I've read sound too unreasonable but they will all usually be accompanied by more than a few dry runs, typically with a few fumbles. Don't say you never dropped a gun in practice or crashed a few gears learning to use a manual gearbox. I did find out, though, that I could learn to drive a right hand drive, six speed manual gearbox, while driving on the left hand side of the drive way in about a half-mile. Nothing to it. Of course, I didn't have to double-clutch and I did on the vehicle I drove for four years.

Do you realize that people have gone into combat with little more than a couple of days of firearms training and practice?

I think you should generally accept that you won't be a trick shot, though no doubt many trick shooters read this forum, but at the same time, it isn't an impossible thing to learn, fast and smooth shooting, even with one hand. I, too, believe you may only have one hand available when the time comes. Now if I just figure out how to make sure it will always be my right hand!

One more thing: don't try holding speedloaders in your mouth.
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Old October 16, 2012, 02:56 PM   #56
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... People frequently make posts about how an automatic pistol must absolutely, positively and without fail, always be carried with the chamber loaded. Why? Because you are (evidently) not expected to have the use of your other hand just when you need it to charge your pistol. Yet, woe unto you if you dare to attempt shooting with just one hand, for all the reasons offered in this and other threads.
I think you're mixing your metaphors, so-to-speak. The prevailing opinion regarding carrying with one in the pipe (as I understand it) has more to do with time and efficiency, than the required use of two hands to rack & load. There is little to be gained by carrying "unloaded", and potentially much to be lost. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions, but generally speaking, loaded makes more sense and costs one nothing. I am unaware of anyone making both claims in a contradictory fashion such as you propose. If so, let's just charitably suggest that they think it through a bit better, or perhaps train until forever disabused of these notions.

I've yet to hear anyone really claim that ONLY two-handed shooting is effective, or the only skill ever required. It's certainly not a generally accepted notion. How could it be? A moments reflection will reveal that in some cases it would be the only thing possible. As such it appears to be a strawman argument, or perhaps based upon isolated incidents of those lacking suitable common sense.

Quote:
... Do you realize that people have gone into combat with little more than a couple of days of firearms training and practice? ...
Of course, and their entire operational framework is quite different than that of a lone citizen at the gas station. I'd not be concerned at the Circle K for much of anything, if I were accompanied by even a minimally-trained, platoon-sized entourage carrying select-fire M4 carbines. I can expand on this if you like.

Last edited by zombietactics; October 16, 2012 at 03:06 PM.
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Old October 16, 2012, 03:11 PM   #57
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Do you realize that people have gone into combat with little more than a couple of days of firearms training and practice?
And those type of people have been fodder for professional Soldiers since the beginning of time. Only overwhelming strength in numbers can *somewhat* level the playing field.
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Old October 16, 2012, 03:15 PM   #58
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Thank you for your kind remarks. I was actually making reference to many points often brought up in this forum, though not necessarily or directly in this forum. Yet people do seem to be quite dogmatic about many of those points. I am even surprised at the frequent references to the unreliability of automatic pistols here generally. I hope I am not at grave risk by only owning pistols and no longer any revolvers. Moreover, I have not suggested that carrying chamber empty is either a good or bad idea. There are good reasons for either method. They, and just about every other point, has been covered here time and again.

And speaking of isolated incidents, virtually all incidents in which a non-law enforcement individual is engaged in the use of a firearm in self-defense is pretty much an isolated incident, is it not? I realize that might be a major point of contention and will separate the believers from the true believers.
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Old October 16, 2012, 03:40 PM   #59
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Thank you for your kind remarks. I was actually making reference to many points often brought up in this forum, though not necessarily or directly in this forum.
Ahh, makes much more sense in that light.

Quote:
I am even surprised at the frequent references to the unreliability of automatic pistols here generally.
I find this puzzling as well. ;-)

Quote:
And speaking of isolated incidents, virtually all incidents in which a non-law enforcement individual is engaged in the use of a firearm in self-defense is pretty much an isolated incident, is it not? I realize that might be a major point of contention and will separate the believers from the true believers.
Scale, perspective and point-of-observation are important.

The numbers are such that all such incidents are "isolated incidents", when viewed against the backdrop reality that the vast majority will never experience them. That holds true true for LE as well as "mere citizens", BTW. It also holds trued for almost every terrorist incident, automobile accident, railroad disaster or outbreak of disease.

Against the backdrop of all such incidents, patterns tend to emerge. Viewed as such, they are less isolated and more open to both qualitative and quantitative analysis.

If the underlying assumption is "it will never happen to me" or perhaps some entirely imaginary notion of what could happen, that invariably leads to a different set of conclusions than "If it happens to me, how best can I be prepared given the likely range of variables?"

Last edited by zombietactics; October 16, 2012 at 03:45 PM.
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Old October 16, 2012, 03:54 PM   #60
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Wow. 3 pages and still going, even though it was explained by the 5th post. Wow. Some of you guys really need to take a class or at the very least watch some training videos.
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Old October 16, 2012, 04:22 PM   #61
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The range where I shoot has several self (?) defense classes, and many students share range time with me. I have observed two practices that, to me, could prove fatal. In both practices, the shooter is wearing the gun butt to the rear, on his right hip for a right handed shooter.

The first has the shooter facing the target, or assailant, full on. He then draws, right hand for a right handed shooter, from the near hip position and brings the gun up to a point just in front of the breast bone, while bringing his left hand to grip the gun. He then thrusts the gun forward bringing it up to eye level, and fires two quick shots.

The second has the shooter face the target. He then makes a fist with his left hand and clasps it to his right
shoulder, sort of like the old Roman Centurian salute. He then draws one handed, thrusts his pistol forward at eye level and fires two quick shots.

Both of these practices are time consuming. I daresay I could draw my .44 Single action and get off at least two shots before they fire.

Who is teaching this kind of gunfighting?

Bob Wright
I am trying to understand what the issue is. One is fast point shooting. The other is single hand point shooting. Single hand shooting is designed for practice in case one arm is injured or you are shepherding someone (inversely holding off someone else). How exactly are these bad, and how exactly are they different than you drawing a hogleg, cocking it and shooting it?
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Old October 16, 2012, 04:31 PM   #62
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If my post was misunderstood let me be clear. I stated I revisited the type of training described and I did not find it practical for me. I also stated that I was less informed than many hear. My purpose for carrying is not to show off my hobby, nor for work. It's only for protection and I practice according to what I feel would work for me and what's in my comfort zone. Its a personal choice I made / make, I also stated that practice in itself builds memory that will help should the need arise.

It seems as others dislike criticism. That's ok. Like I have stated many time sd is as much about staying away from places not in keeping with me having a good experience so to that end I'll pack my guns and go. I leave to the know it all hobbyist among you.

Happy Shooting, see you at the rodeo.
That was a bit...strange.
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Old October 16, 2012, 04:53 PM   #63
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It seems as others dislike criticism.
When someone who hasn't been to school criticises what has been taught in school, and proven successfull for decades, yeah, it's going to go over like a kindergartener giving a critique of a basic algebra lesson: "They were plussing LETTERS to NUMBERS! Everbody know you use just the NUMBERS in math!"
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Old October 16, 2012, 05:37 PM   #64
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A friend's daughter came home from her first day training at McDonald's and stated that she was going to make suggestions to improve McDonald's methods.

This thread reminds me of that.
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Old October 16, 2012, 07:54 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...A person can sit and ponder a problem, in this case firearms related, and come up with a reasonable solution. In a perfect world, it works just fine. It is perfect at the pistol range, it works well in competition and it brings home the ribbons, the trophies and praise from well-wishers. But it's not a perfect world and the only thing that's wrong here is that in the real world, it lacks common sense....
I find this completely unintelligible. Exactly what are you trying to say?

If your message has something to do with the fact that sometimes people think up what they think is a good idea, and that idea works in come contexts but not in others, that's certainly not a new or novel insight. If you're claiming that somehow the difference is what you call common sense, how about providing some evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...Yet, woe unto you if you dare to attempt shooting with just one hand, for all the reasons offered in this and other threads....
And that is simply not true.

There have been numerous threads here in which the importance of being able to shoot one-handed, either dominant hand only or non-dominant hand only, has been pointed out. One-handed shooting is also commonly included in good defensive pistol training.

But it has also been demonstrated that if one knows what he is doing and has the opportunity to use it, a proper two handed grip facilitates recoil management and will allow quicker, accurate follow-up shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...Don't say you never dropped a gun in practice...
Actually, it's quite true that I've never dropped a gun, in practice or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...Do you realize that people have gone into combat with little more than a couple of days of firearms training and practice?...
Yes, and some have survived and some haven't. Do you think, perhaps, that more and better training might have helped more survive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...it isn't an impossible thing to learn, fast and smooth shooting, even with one hand....
No it isn't an impossible thing to learn. In fact, we continually encourage people to learn and practice it, both with one's dominant and non-dominant hand. And one will learn it better and more easily by training with a good instructor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six
A friend's daughter came home from her first day training at McDonald's and stated that she was going to make suggestions to improve McDonald's methods....
Is there some kind of problem with that? Surely it's just a matter of common sense? Why would she need any experience or knowledge?
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Old October 16, 2012, 09:02 PM   #66
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Every good trainer I have trained with has told me that what they were about to teach me was "a way" not "the way" and that I should take from them what worked for me and compare it to what I know now and learn in the future and keep what works. Every good trainer I have ever trained with was also a professional student, never too proud to learn from another.

That said, none of them ever taught me to walk around with a preconceived idea of what the fight of my life would be, how it would unfold, and how a cowboy gun would save the day just as I imagined it would without ever once having been to a professional tactical training class.

Imagine that.
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Old October 17, 2012, 01:42 PM   #67
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Seems to me the modern pistol technique is so widely accepted as the "industry standard" that it would be difficult for anyone who's been shooting handguns for any appreciable length of time to be unaware of it.

I couldn't help but think that the OP was just pulling everyone's chain and having a good chuckle at our expense.

-Stan-
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Old October 18, 2012, 06:56 AM   #68
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I've had limited exposure to self-defense classes, but I have qualified several times with a handgun for the military**.

In those cases, we were taught a similar method of draw (Strong side to chest and then out to target).

When I was taught, I was told that one of the primary reasons we were learning to draw like that was that it actually provides three areas to shoot from.

As soon as it clears the holster, the barrel (and your arm) are turned parallel to the ground. If the BG is closing in, you can shoot from that position with relative stability (maybe not awesome accuracy without practice, but relative stability).

When you bring the weapon to your chest, now supported by your off-hand, you can still shoot from that position. Maybe not comfortably, but you know what I'm getting at.

Then, if the target is still a "safe" enough distance, you bring the weapon out into a good isosceles stance.

As far as the one-handed shooting, I do that routinely for practice, both strong- and off- hand, for some of the reasons stated above. God forbid I have someone with me that I need to shield, or I've been injured myself, I'm holding off another BG, etc.


**I'm a reservist, so I dont get nearly the training with a handgun I'm sure the active guys do/did, so hopefully someone else can chime in. I do alot of training on my own with my own handguns and AR-15, so I'm sure not everything I do is "proper", as it were. Personally I wish the reservists would do much more shooting that we currently do...
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Old October 18, 2012, 10:39 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluetrain
Do you realize that people have gone into combat with little more than a couple of days of firearms training and practice?
Do you realize that people have gone into combat with ZERO firearms training and practice?

Some people survive or die by pure luck. I don't know how to control that. But you'll find that as a general rule that your survival rate will be inversely proportional to the amount of training and practice you've had.
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Old October 18, 2012, 11:37 AM   #70
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Inversely proportional?

The point of my comment was that it was not always possible for some to receive more than the training they did receive, chiefly because there was not enough time. It was hardly the ideal but other things also matter. One will never be totally prepared and one will never be at the peak of perfection. That does not mean, however, than you can't be "in good training," physical limitations notwithstanding.

Some training programs are based on the requirement to train people quickly, others more to take advantage of fewer limitations of time and expense. But there are always some limits.
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Old October 18, 2012, 01:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...The point of my comment was that it was not always possible for some to receive more than the training they did receive, chiefly because there was not enough time. It was hardly the ideal but other things also matter. ....

Some training programs are based on the requirement to train people quickly...
So what? What does a military need for expediency and to sometimes put troops on the ground quickly have to do with the subject of this thread?
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Old October 18, 2012, 01:33 PM   #72
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Because non-military people may not have unlimited resources either. Your resources may vary.
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Old October 18, 2012, 01:50 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by BlueTrain
Because non-military people may not have unlimited resources either. Your resources may vary.
But --
  1. Your personal decision is still your personal decision. There are many ways to learn. You decide how and what you want to learn and how to use your resources. What you choose not to learn, you won't learn; and what you choose not to know, you won't know. And, as with anything else, there may be consequences to those choices.

  2. That's all no reason to be critical of, or denigrate, those who have more resources or choose to use their resources differently from you -- such as to acquire certain knowledge or skills.

  3. In any case, this thread isn't really about levels or quantity of training. It's about clearing up a lack of familiarity with currently taught defensive pistolcraft doctrine.
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Old October 18, 2012, 01:52 PM   #74
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My resources are limited, as are most peoples ...... some more than others.

I may not be able to go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch just now, but I CAN read. Great volumes of information are free in a public library ..... being as how Cooper's writings are near 60 years old, and so many others have written on the subject ...... it's just one more example that proves to me that "There is little functional difference between those who can not read, and those who do not.".......
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Old October 18, 2012, 02:18 PM   #75
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I am not criticizing those who have greater resources than I, nor those who choose to employ them differently than I. In fact, to an extent, I envy them. I do remember Elmer Keith's comment: I'm always learning (or words to that effect). I also recall some of the books published by Cooper back when I first started reading gun publications in the late 1950s. And by the way, how much longer will his New Technique be...well, never mind.

There was a time also when I was expending much more of my resources than I am on shooting exercises, which contributed to much of my thoughts and opinions on the subject. But priorities do change and other expenses loomed high for a while. So resources were allocated to more important projects. We now have two children who have finished school (from a school named after their great-great-great-great-great grandfather, on their mother's side, you understand). We also just finished marrying one of them off (remember the daughter-got-married thread) and we have zero debt.

I probably talk too much about my kids.
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