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Old October 8, 2012, 05:22 PM   #1
RICKMARX
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Be Gentle; New Cartridge Selection

Given the current uncertain political climate, and my renewed interest in the sport of shooting, coupled with my appreciation for the superb engineering that goes into mostof today's, and yesterdays firearms, I decided it's time to purchase a carry weapon.

I'm gunless now- past inventory included Mossberg 500A, SW M&P in .40 cal, and a GP100.

My question(s) center around the fact that I'm looking for a round that offers the best penetration through barriers. Auto glass, steel, etc.
I'd also prefer a platform that offers a high cap. magazine. Basically, if I needed to defend myself or family against a bad guy, I wouldn't want to be at any kind of avoidable disadvantage. I read Ayoob's books may years ago, but have forgotten most of the valuable information.

I want a full size pistol, not interested in subcompacts.

I'm all over the place with my cartridge selection. I like the .45ACP, and the 1911, but the high cap. isn't there (that I'm aware of).
I enjoyed the performance of the GP100, and would like similar ballistics in an auto platform. I'm wondering how a 9mm +p would stack up against the .357 as far as penetration; wondering if it's worth the money...Yes, I've looked at countless reports, tests, etc. Just want some real world input.

Realize this post was off the wall, any info provided will be considered and much appreciated. Thanks.
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Old October 8, 2012, 05:40 PM   #2
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Hi RickMarx... welcome to the Asylum.

Quote:
My question(s) center around the fact that I'm looking for a round that offers the best penetration through barriers. Auto glass, steel, etc.
In a conventional sized semi-auto handgun, the .357 Sig chambering might be what you're looking for. Think of it as a slightly slower .357 Mag, or a +P+ 9mm.
If you're not familiar with it, it was designed by Federal at the behest of Sig Sauer in an attempt to produce the ballistics of the 125 gr .357 Mag, in a compact, high capacity auto cartridge. It is based, roughly, on the .40 S&W case necked down to 9mm.
You can buy a .357 Sig chambered handgun and in most cases, typically with little more than a barrel change, shoot .40 S&W... and visa versa.

Another is of course the 10mm Auto... but there are far fewer hi capacity handguns chambered in this round. The Glock 20 and Colt Delta Elite (not hi-cap) are, IMO, the two most well known, with the EAA Witness following not too far behind.

Cheers,
C
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Old October 8, 2012, 06:06 PM   #3
federali
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?????

Despite all the caliber wars, there's little difference in stopping power, whatever that is, between currently-in-use rounds such as the 9mm, .40, .357 SIG or the .45 ACP.

My question is, if you're talking home defense, you don't necessarily need the bullet performance that the police need unless you think an intruder is going to drive his car up to your bedroom. An intruder will not seek cover and then engage in a set-piece gun battle. He'll try to flee. I'm using Hornady Critical defense in my carry guns. I'm no longer in law enforcement and I won't be engaging barricaded felons or swapping lead along the freeway in a road rage incident.

S&W makes their M&P in .45 ACP and a 13 round magazine is available if legal in your state. That should be more than enough.

Remember that gun and caliber are the least important factors in separating the winners from the losers. Concentrate on mindset, judgment, tactics, and knowledge. an average of one police officer dies every 57 hours in America. Their guns and ammo are state of the art, yet, it didn't save them.
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Old October 8, 2012, 06:18 PM   #4
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I would suggest you think about going with an M&P40 again and consider purchasing the factory 357Sig barrel, giving you the option to have calibers. the barrels sell on sights like Midway for around $78. A meager investment to have 2 calibers. You can also convert the 40S&W M&P down to 9mm with a simple barrel change and using Factory 9mm mags. This would give you the choice of 3 different calibers for the original price of the gun + under 200 more. Having the ability to shoot 9mm will save you in ammo costs but still allowing you to shoot the same gun giving you more trigger time with the same platform. And unless you had some major dislikes, you are already familiar with the gun. This is just my opinion. There are a lot of good firearms out there to consider. I suspect you will get a lot of 45 is best, 40 is best, 9 is best, 357 is best. Do your research, there is no perfect round that's great at everything or we'd all be using it. This is why I personally give a lot of merit to a multi-caliber system. I think it allows more flexibility. If you want to go 45, I would also recommend the M&P45 I love mine and have 5 10rnd and 2 14rnd mags for it. I also added the Apex DCAEK kit, which made the trigger like butter.
The down side with going with a gun this size is it's harder to conceal. I rarely carry my M&P45. My usual FS carry gun is an FNH FNX-9 and I carry my Ruger LCP when i need to pocket carry or deep concealment.

Last edited by Sinkhole; October 8, 2012 at 06:27 PM.
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Old October 8, 2012, 07:16 PM   #5
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Sounds like you want a 10mm. Barring that, consider using Critical Duty ammo.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
I'm looking for a round that offers the best penetration through barriers. Auto glass, steel, etc.
I'd also prefer a platform that offers a high cap. magazine.
I wouldn't want to be at any kind of avoidable disadvantage.
Glock 29
10 rounds of 10mm and its concealable.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:32 PM   #7
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For barrier penetration it's probably a toss-up between .40 S&W and .357 SIG, with the slight edge to .357 SIG.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:40 PM   #8
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Someone already beat me to it, but it sounds like you're looking for the 10mm Auto. Either the Glock 20 (fullsize) or Glock 29 (compact). It's also availabe for the 1911 and the Witness.

- Better barrier penetration than .45 ACP or .40 S&W.
- More muzzle energy than .45 ACP or .40 S&W.
- Heavier projectile and larger caliber than 9mm or .357 sig.
- Heavier 200 grain loads do better in 10mm than .40 S&W.
- Recoil is stout, but accpetable.
- Reliable platfrom (Glock, 1911).
- Readily available components if you reload. Otherwise, ammo is available online.
- High performance carry and hunting ammunition available.
- Viable performance against humans and animals.
- Can rival or exceed .357 magnum depending on the load and can make use of heavier bullets, which the .357 sig cannot do.

For all intents and purposes, one 10mm handgun could fill the same niches covered by both of your former handguns...the .40 and the .357.

Last edited by testuser; October 9, 2012 at 11:23 AM.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
My question(s) center around the fact that I'm looking for a round that offers the best penetration through barriers. Auto glass, steel, etc.

But I'll ask. Why? In a civilian Self defence carry weapon.
You might get more responses from mallninjaforums.com if such a thing exisists!
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Old October 8, 2012, 10:32 PM   #10
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STI Perfect 10.
http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-perfect-10/

I believe that this fulfills all of your criteria.

If the price tag threatens your health, history of high blood pressure or other cardio concerns, then the "bargain" G20 has the "Hi-cap" mags that you are looking for.

And it really depends on just how many you want per mag; Wilson Combat mags for the Colt Delta Elite allow for 9 + 1.

Quote:
But I'll ask. Why? In a civilian Self defence carry weapon.
For the bears of course! You know, those BIG Alaskan, truck driving bears! (They are getting smarter every day, dontchaknow!)
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Old October 9, 2012, 02:33 AM   #11
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I think I would have phrased it a bit differently than Cheapshooter, but I generally concur: I don't think you need to worry as much about "barrier penetration" as a civilian. Worse yet, I suspect shooting through barriers would make the majority of self defense claims pretty difficult.

However, this will open up many more options for you, including the ubiquitous 9mm. Don't worry--you should be statistically well protected with any pistol of 9mm and above. And even more so if you get another Mossberg.
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Old October 9, 2012, 03:16 AM   #12
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I think a 10mm or 357sig glock would work.
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Old October 9, 2012, 06:46 AM   #13
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This thread has a lot of links comparing different calibers and it might be more up your alley:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=91827

Personally, I fit in the "choose the caliber you shoot best, buy decent ammo, then don't worry about it" category. From everything I've read, there is little difference in (good) modern ammo choices. Most important, as many have pointed out, is shot placement.

I carry 165 grain Gold Dots (.40) in my G27 and 124 grain Golden Sabres (9mm) in my Kahr. I'm guessing both would perform well enough in most encounters I'd ever need it. If I knew I was getting into a firefight that would involve barriers, I'd be loading up an AK with a drum of steel tips or FMJs.
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Old October 9, 2012, 08:13 AM   #14
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I tend to agree with federali. Things like training, awareness and preparedness are much more important than "which round is best" (although it is interesting to discuss). For the typical homeowner, any round from .380 to .45 will get the job done, if you do your part. I wouldn't use a magnum round (.44, .41 or .357) indoors due to over penetration issues and the very loud bang those rounds make indoors. You may not be able to hear calls from a loved one after firing a magnum round indoors without ear protection for several minutes to several hours. Invest in a moderately priced motion sensor for your home for early intruder detection. A good dog will do the same thing. The modern hollow point ammo available today is much better than what was available even just 20 years ago. I prefer the Speer Gold Dots and Hornady Critical Defense, but premium self defense offerings from Winchester, Corbon and Federal are also quite good. I own a .45, 9mm, 357 magnum and a 38 special. I enjoy them all and shoot them all. However, I practice the most with the 9mm, because it is the least expensive to shoot.

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Old October 10, 2012, 01:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
I think I would have phrased it a bit differently than Cheapshooter, but I generally concur:
Guess I shouldn't have accused a new member of wanting to be a mall ninja, but us old codgers just get cantankerous at times.. Too many recent Clint Eastwood movies I suppose!
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Old October 11, 2012, 01:04 PM   #16
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From your criteria, the 357 Sig fits the bill. I am a recent convert so I am biased. Underwood ammo sells a 125 bonded GD at an honest 1475 FPS.
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