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Old October 3, 2012, 12:36 PM   #1
DAR
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Does Anyone Else Weigh Powder?

I started weighing my powder on my reload scales for more consistency for my Encore ML. I shoot 100 grains of loose triple 7 under a 250gr shockwave. I can usually shoot under 2" group at 100 yards. I was wondering if anyone that weighs their powder has noticed a difference in accuracy.
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Old October 3, 2012, 01:36 PM   #2
Pahoo
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Old habits are hard to break ...

Quote:
Does Anyone Else Weigh Powder?
I use to, on my ROA a long time ago but you really don't have to. If you feel more comfortable doing so, then by all means, continue. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old October 3, 2012, 02:15 PM   #3
jaguarxk120
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Hodgdon says to measure by volume, how does the volume of T7 compare to the same volume of blackpowder vs weight?

I know it is easyer to use a measure in the field or at the range, but weighing powder is just better overall.
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Old October 3, 2012, 02:42 PM   #4
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You might want to confirm the weight to volume ratio before doing this further. Its not a 5~10% difference, its more like 60% difference. That could easily result in a dramatic overload if you don't actually do a comparison & weigh an equivalent for volumne, not just a substitution.
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Old October 3, 2012, 03:37 PM   #5
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Experimented with weighed powder loads a couple times. Gave it up; any small gain in accuracy was not worth the bother.

Quote:
Hodgdon says to measure by volume, how does the volume of T7 compare to the same volume of blackpowder vs weight?
Weight to volume for some BP substitutes:

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
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Old October 3, 2012, 03:57 PM   #6
DAR
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My load was 120g by volume. When weighed on my scales was usually between 95-100 grains. So I just made it a consistent 100 grains.
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Old October 3, 2012, 05:08 PM   #7
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A few grains one way or the other won't make any difference with bp or subs. Volume is easiest.
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Old October 3, 2012, 05:39 PM   #8
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"[A few grains one way or the other won't make any difference with bp or subs. Volume is easiest.]"


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Agree 100%, Volume all the time for me & all the guys and gals I shoot with
Y/D
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Old October 3, 2012, 06:35 PM   #9
kwhi43@kc.rr.com
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Wonder why the bench shooters at Friendship weigh their powder on
electronic powder scales???
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Old October 3, 2012, 06:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Wonder why the bench shooters at Friendship weigh their powder on
electronic powder scales???
Because they're bench rest shooters that use outlandish looking guns that are hella accurate. It won't make any difference to the casual shooter with a run of the mill clone or hunting rifle.
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Old October 3, 2012, 08:55 PM   #11
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Oh, I see then it does make a difference to weigh charges, it just depends on
What kind of a gun you are shooting and your expections of accuracy. Me, I
Would want every bit of a edge I could get.
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Old October 3, 2012, 09:28 PM   #12
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A lot of bench rest shooters meter their charges with something like a RCBS Uniflow powder measure bolted on their shooting boxes also.
Inconsistant drying of the bore after swabbing between shots can negate any gains from weighed powder charges. Ditto with inconsistant seating pressure.
Finally, even the most carefully loaded rifle is for naught if you shoot when the wind is wrong.
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Old October 4, 2012, 04:15 AM   #13
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Most of the group of folks that I know that shoot BPCR weigh each and every charge. Some don't, most do. It is a matter of repetitiveness. While minute of whitetail deer won't show any velocity deviation, paper targets will, especially once you start moving to 200 yards or better. Velocity variation will show up as vertical stringing.

Some of the folks (well more than some) even go as far as to weigh each and every bullet and each case. Case weight variations will help pinpoint internal volume discrepancies which will affect the burn.

I have seen .003 to almost .007 (maybe more) variation (high to low) in case web thicknesses in the same brand of brass, but in a mixed lot, in some cases I was given. This will affect the degree of compression and cause a difference (well slight) in the burn, especially with BP.


NOW with that said, there is a group of folks that shoot muzzle loading slug guns at a club near me. (Canal Fulton Ohio). I have seen those folks shoot 100 and 200 yard groups you could cover with a half dollar and all they do is drop their powder charges with a measure such as the old Belding and Mulls.

My Belding and Mulls will consistently drop within a couple TENTHS of grain of BP as long as I actuate the lever in a consistent repetitive manner each time.
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Old October 4, 2012, 05:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Oh, I see then it does make a difference to weigh charges, it just depends on
What kind of a gun you are shooting and your expections of accuracy. Me, I
Would want every bit of a edge I could get.
It might make a difference in your guns. It wont in mine. I can't really tell much difference in 5 grains +/-
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Old October 4, 2012, 10:16 PM   #15
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What do you guys use to store your pre-weighed powder in? I need an inexpensive way to carry many pre-weighed charges to the range.
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
What do you guys use to store your pre-weighed powder in? I need an inexpensive way to carry many pre-weighed charges to the range
I used empty rifle cartridges and sealed them with foam earplugs. This worked well for my .45 TC Hawkin that had a 45-50 grain sweet load for a patched round ball, .30-06 cases would hold that much easily.
If you want to carry 100 grain pre measured charges, you're going to need some of those big game belted magnum cases, or split the charge into two cases.
It's really not a bad way to carry your powder when hunting.

Historically, Revolutionary War and Civil War soldiers carried pre measured charges in paper cartridges. It's like rolling a cigarette but with gunpowder and using heavy waxed paper. Soldiers had to tear them open with their teeth and pour the charge down the barrel, which was why good teeth was a requirement for being in the military back then.
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Old October 5, 2012, 10:56 AM   #17
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Me too !!!

Quote:
I used empty rifle cartridges and sealed them with foam earplugs.
Pretty much the same, using pistol and rifle brass. The only exception, is that I get some plastic caps or press-on covers from Ace hardware. They make these in different sizes and colors. They also sell corks or rubber plugs again, in different sizes. I then insert the cases, in a regular loading board. ...

Be Safe !!!
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Old October 5, 2012, 11:22 AM   #18
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I went to the dollar store, and bought some glitter for hobbies. They come in several size plastic bottles, that are just the right size for storing extra loads. I think I paid about $2.00 for a package of 5 bottles. Poured out the glitter, and loaded them up. Completely water-proof and clear so you can see through them.
I put 3 charges in 3 bottles, and 3 bullets and sabots in another one. I carry a 3 shot primer carrier. Including the load in my barrel, it gives me 4 shots total. I bought an elastic shell holder, for a .410 caliber shotgun, and put it over the stock of my ML. It will hold 5 shots so I carry the extra loads & Bullets in 4 of the shell holders, and some extra patches and an extra primer or two in the 5th bottle.
By doing this, it allows me to carry everything I need for a hunt, right on the rifle without having to carry anything in a bag or pocket. It is handy to re-load because everything you need is already out of my pocket, and where I can get hold of it in a hurry.
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Old October 5, 2012, 11:23 AM   #19
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Old October 5, 2012, 11:51 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAR
What do you guys use to store your pre-weighed powder in? I need an inexpensive way to carry many pre-weighed charges to the range.
I use a combination of prescription and over-the-counter pill bottles to carry pre-measured charges in.
They can be easy to accumulate but are larger than necessary. However they do have wide mouths and are easy to drop the powder into.
But there are many types of capped vials for sale on eBay that can be found by searching for "powder vials" or "vials".
At least one reputable seller named jesuslives2saveu sells many black powder vials with threaded caps including some under the headin Blackhorn 209 Muzzleloader Powder Charge Tubes 25 Speedloader Black Powder Vial .
If the link expires just search for Powder vials and his new listings should be in the search results.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blackhorn-20...item2a143cd669

I also use an inexpensive plastic funnel from a set that I bought at a dollar store which helps to not spill powder during loading.

Last edited by arcticap; October 5, 2012 at 12:10 PM.
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Old October 7, 2012, 07:09 AM   #21
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I took a look at the TMLRA firing line and I didn't see a single benchrest shooter using premeasured charges. A lot of them use adjustable powder measures and are very methodical about using them. With practice, you can throw very repeatable charges.
A few use crank type powder measures used for reloading smokeless powder.

This is one of the most popular powder measures in use. It has a spring loaded valve and you push your adjustable powder holder into it to fill it.


Where you see premeasured powder charges used is in NSSA skirmish shoots. These shooters shoot and reload on the clock and having a bunch of premeasured charges ready to go makes for faster shooting, and is historically more accurate than loading from a powder flask in Civil War re-enactments.
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Old October 7, 2012, 11:47 AM   #22
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I use 14 grs of Swiss Black Powder in our pistol loads. This is a very "Hot"
powder and a little can make a big difference in velocity. So I do weigh my
loads I can't have my powder chargers varying a couple of grains one way
or the other. Three grains makes a 100 fps difference. With Championship
Aggs being won by just one point, or a "X", you need all the accuracy you
can get. The wife has won by just one point several times. I won the "As
Issue" revolver 25 yd match by wide shot out at the Nationals "NMLRA"
in June. So you can't give up a thing. You sure don't want to go into a
Championship match under a handicap.
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Old October 9, 2012, 02:56 AM   #23
iraiam
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I use Goex black powder, I have always measured by volume. I do recall pre-weighing some charges and testing for accuracy. I saw no improvement in accuracy at all so I just went back to volume measurement.
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Old October 9, 2012, 08:00 PM   #24
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Just to satisfy my curiosity, weighed some powder charges I measured to test how repeatable my measuring techniques were.

The first test, the powder measure shown in post # 21, plunger set to 80 grains and measuring Swiss FFg.

77.1
77.8
77.9
77.7
77.1
77.3
77.2
77.4
77.2
77.6

Average 77.43
SD .29833

From a measuring powder flask with a 20 grain spout metering Schuetzen FFFg.

21.1
21.0
20.3
21.2
20.7
20.8
20.9
20.6
20.8
20.6

Average 20.8
SD .26667

Finally, from a Lee crank style powder measure mounted on a stand to take to shoots. Measure set to 1.5cc volume. Schuetzen FFFg. Handle up for about one second to fill, down to dump into an empty rifle case and three light raps with my fingers to make sure no powder sticks to the plastic drop tube.

20.7
20.6
20.6
20.6
20.7
20.8
20.7
20.8
20.8
20.7

Average 20.7
SD .08165
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Old October 11, 2012, 10:09 AM   #25
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Of course measuring by volume for a given load, zero and sight settings is solely dependent on the manufacturer and the lot of powder you have from such.

Having Dropped hundreds if not into the thousands of charges from my Belding and Mull and weighing each and everyone, I can agree that for the most part a person comes up with those kinds of repeatable results. However once you start getting to the bottom of the hopper the weights start varying towards the light side and when you pour some fresh in it will weigh heavy. I try and keep the hopper filled over a 1/4 full when loading.

When switching between lots of powder from the same company, or between different manufacturers, you would be surprised at the difference in densities.

I have a case of Goex 2F that is less dense than the couple cans of Swiss 1.5 that I have, even though the granular size is equivalent.

I realize granular size has a big impact, but the case of Goex 1F that I have is much more dense than the aforementioned 2F and even though the 1F grains have more airspace, the same volume of it weighs more than the 2F I have. You would think the 2F should weigh more because of less airspace, but it doesn't.

Does it make a difference when hunting, probably not. Does it make a difference when shooting groups at 200 yards and beyond, definitely does. Different velocities will show up as vertical stringing. Different amounts of compression will show up as vertical stringing.

I have even gone as far as weighing my cases and measuring web thickness so that compression and internal volume in the cases is as close to the same as can be so that each and every shot is the same and that the problems in on the target are me, not the load.

When I do load development, I load 10 each of cartridges in increments of 1 grain of powder. After that, I will even go down to 1/2 grain changes to see if it will make a difference.

A 1 grain difference will turn a 5 or 6 in 200 yd group into a 2 - 2.5 in group. As I shoot out to 1000 yards, my standard (for as good as I can see and hold at the present time) is a 2.5 in group shot off cross sticks with a soule sight. For the most part I have found such a group size will hold accurate out to 1000 yards.

I have watched some of the muzzle loading slug gun shooters dropping charges with powder measurers. Of course they are not weighing the charges, but they are doing (or attempting to do) each and every motion the same as the last shot. Their ram rods are scribed so they compress the same, etc etc and it pays off on the targets for them. I have watched them shoot groups at 200 you can cover with a 1/2 dollar and sometimes with a quarter.

Last edited by drcook; October 11, 2012 at 10:21 AM.
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