The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 9, 2012, 07:29 PM   #26
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,542
Interesting history lesson.

It seems every country has a certain focus on firearm design and was curious why CZ went the route they did.
chris in va is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 09:06 PM   #27
lechiffre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2008
Location: phoenix,az
Posts: 414
Quote:
The grip ergos pretty much "copy" the Browning High Power
Other than being totally different, they are almost the same.

The CZ-75 and the FN Hi-Power have almost nothing in common.
__________________
if God hadn't meant us to shoot he wouldn't have given us trigger fingers

do the interns get glocks ?
lechiffre is offline  
Old October 10, 2012, 03:44 AM   #28
Sparks1957
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,471
Quote:
Other than being totally different, they are almost the same


Good one! I've always thought CZ was a descendent of the Sig 210 primarily.
Sparks1957 is offline  
Old October 10, 2012, 07:28 PM   #29
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
One of the most copied guns designed is the CZ75. Why is that?

From what I read one time the history of CZ (including the Nazi take over in WWII) in a mag, CZ (1975=75) was under the rule of the iron curtain. They didn't want to patented it because they were being so secretive. Well, that didn't work very well, did it?

It just took one, Pandora's box was opened.
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old October 10, 2012, 07:34 PM   #30
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
FYI The CZ75 (not CZ75B) in the early 80s was bringing a very big premium ($400-$500?) in the USA, if, you could get one.
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old October 10, 2012, 09:01 PM   #31
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,395
Quote:
FYI The CZ75 (not CZ75B) in the early 80s was bringing a very big premium ($400-$500?) in the USA
Actually, I remember seeing them at twice that for a bit around 1988. It was the first non-1911 pistol for which I heard Jeff Cooper speak kind words.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 01:54 AM   #32
peacefulgary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 524
Quote:
CZ is well known for having an above average ergo grip.
The CZ 75B Single Action that I had was "okay" but certainly nothing to rave about.
peacefulgary is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 04:35 AM   #33
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 2,983
Firstly, I have to ask:

Quote:
why a manufacturer from the Czech Republic?
Why not? Are there only certain countries that are supposed to think of this side of their product's design?

"Right! Remember lads! This is the Czech Republic, OK? So no wasting R&D on how the poxy guns feel! Got that?"

Secondly, I agree with some of the statements about comfort in the hand: there are a number of guns that people rave about, ergo-wise, before any other feature. It must be fairly highly placed in their list of priorities, hence so should it be with the manufacturer.
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 05:04 AM   #34
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Ergonomics of the CZ frame fit me well, just as the XD does. The screwed up ergonomics (among other issues) IS the Glock, the Ruger 22 and others of that angle and shape. A 1911 with an arched mainspring housing also.
garryc is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 09:56 AM   #35
KevK.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2012
Posts: 137
shared traits, and yet very different.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/B...20and%20CZ.htm

There are number of things they have in common, but enough differences that they are two different firearms.

The Czech Rep. might have been on the other side of the iron curtain and forced to take certain cues from the Warsaw Pact in what they carried. They always looked to improve designs and create new ones.
__________________
CZ82, S&W Mod. 65 .357, Marlin 22mn (22WMR), Mossberg 500.
KevK. is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 11:55 AM   #36
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
Magnum Wheel Man

Post #9

Quote:
The grip ergos pretty much "copy" the Browning High Power
Quote:
I do not see the CZ-75 as "Son of Hi Power." (Perhaps a second or third cousin.) Neither do I see this belief as a slam against the CZ. Both designs have proven themselves to be very fine pistols in their own, separate rights.
If it aint broke.........
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 12:50 PM   #37
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,348
OK... whatever... the High Power is the 1st of what I would call ergonomic semi autos ( maybe I'm forgetting something ??? ) seem the next I can think of is the CZ -75... while the pattern is not exact, both guns fit my hand like they were made for it... I guess that's more what I was trying to say...

color me lazy... "pretty much copy" = 2 fully typed lines above...
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 01:28 PM   #38
lechiffre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2008
Location: phoenix,az
Posts: 414
Quote:
FYI The CZ75 (not CZ75B) in the early 80s was bringing a very big premium ($400-$500?) in the USA, if, you could get one.
The first time a saw a CZ-75 was at a gun show in about 1989. It was right next to a Walther P88. The P88 was 1,200. The CZ-75 was 1,300.

About 4 or 5 years later when importation became common CZ-75s were about $400.
__________________
if God hadn't meant us to shoot he wouldn't have given us trigger fingers

do the interns get glocks ?
lechiffre is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 02:15 PM   #39
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 5,750
Quote:
The grip ergos pretty much "copy" the Browning High Power

Other than being totally different, they are almost the same.
Hmmmm, let's see. Steel frame with separate grip panels, to accommodate hi-cap 9mm mag? Yep. Tilting barrel lock-up, with radial lugs? Yep. "Browning" lower lock-up on slide stop pin? Yep. Thumb safety at rear of frame, allowing cocked-n-locked carry? Yep.
I'm looking for things on the two guns that AREN'T almost the same, and can find only the trigger action to separate them? Just what about them is "totally different"?
Really, I can't think of two guns that could be more alike, but still be different? Well, OK, the S&W Sigma is pretty much a copy of the Glock, but beyond that?
RickB is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 02:44 PM   #40
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
CZ75, DA/SA. Browning HiPower, SA.

CZ75, slide rides inside frame. BHP, slide rides outside frame.

As Tom Servo noted, barrel linkup in CZ75 is closer to that of SIG P210 than that of BHP.

CZ75, 16+1 with flush mag, up to 18+1 with mags with extended floorplates; BHP, 13+1 (maybe, because some guns don't run well in +1 mode), up to 15+1 (same caveat) with new Mec-Gar mags.

The BHP has a slimmer slide/frame width, and will fit in most 1911 holsters.

The BHP has a magazine disconnect safety.

The trigger reaches are not the same. A lot of people complain about the reach on the CZ75 being too long. I have long fingers, and find the reach on the BHP too short.

Note that the short reach on the BHP was an intentional design feature, as Browning (and later Saive, after Browning's death) were tasked with shortening the reach from that of the 1911, which many at the time considered too long for medium or smaller hands.

The CZ75 was designed with a gloved hand in mind, and IMO works better if gloves are worn than does the BHP.

The thumb safety on the CZ75 is further forward, higher, and larger than the thumb safety on the BHP.

The CZ75 eats +P all day without a problem. Do that to an earlier (pre-Gen III) BHP, and you'll wear out your locking lugs and possibly crack your frame.

Otherwise, yes, they have indented backstraps, double column magazines, double tapered slides, and typically come in 9mm (or sometimes .40).

They look sort of similar. They really are not. (I've owned both.)
MLeake is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 03:54 PM   #41
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 5,750
OK, I get it. I'll bet the CZ is made from 4130 steel, while the HP is made from 4140? The white dots on the CZ's sights are round, while those on the HP are square. My stainless 1911 is nothing like my blued 1911. My red baseball cap is nothing like my black baseball cap.
RickB is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 04:08 PM   #42
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,293
The only similarities i see is the two locking lugs up into slide. The slide fits differently the trigger system is totally different the safety catch is different the barrel on the cz has a pin trough a cam in the barrel different from the browning. I suppose they are both black.
manta49 is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 05:11 PM   #43
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
RickB, if you don't get it, it's because you don't want to get it.

Your snide comparison would be less snide and more accurate if you compared, say, a Toyota Spyder and a Mazda MX-5. Both are small, two-seat convertibles; they have relatively similar weights and wheelbases; they are powered by 4-bangers.

Transmissions are different; suspensions are different; but they are just like a red and a black baseball cap.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 06:01 PM   #44
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 5,750
If someone were to categorize handguns by type, I'd expect, "all-metal, double-stack, 9mm, frame-mounted thumb safety" could conceivably be a category into which "similar" guns might be ordered.
I really doubt anyone would make a category for, "Slide - with external rails - width of between 1.00"-1.1", frame to hold mags with greater than 13-round capacity, absence of mag disconnect, trigger guard large enough for NATO mittens, etc., etc." That category would contain one gun, and no other gun in the world could be considered similar to it.
The CZ is obviously no clone of the BHP, but as handguns go, they are much closer to "similar" than "totally different".
Is a large-frame Star .45 totally different from a 1911? I'd say no, for the same reasons, but you would say yes.
As the Russians say, "Everyone strokes differently".
RickB is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 07:48 PM   #45
myshoulderissore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2010
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 447
They are essentially the same gun... Both shoot bullets, from metal things, and are small enough for single hand firing. Oh, and both having a trigger is a dead giveaway!
myshoulderissore is offline  
Old October 11, 2012, 09:37 PM   #46
tosnyder
Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2011
Posts: 18
Personally I like the cz ergos. I have a sp-01 that fits like a glove. My first pistol was a cz clone, Jericho 941, and to date the only pistol I regret selling.

I think I'm kinda an anomaly in that most guns feel good to me though. I have smallish hands with long fingers which I think allows me to get a good grip on most designs.

Since there has been a lot of debate on the similarities/differences of the BHP vs cz75 in this thread here is an article I read awhile ago that goes into some good detail comparing he two of them.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/B...20and%20CZ.htm

On a side note if you ever get the chance to go to the Czech Republic I highly recommend it.
tosnyder is offline  
Old October 12, 2012, 02:42 AM   #47
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Are a Ruger GP100 and S&W 686 essentially the same gun?

Both are stainless, DA, L-frame (not called that by Ruger, but very similar dimensions) .357 revolvers that can be had with short barrels or 6" barrels. Both will accept a fairly wide variety of grip shapes. Both have cylinders that even rotate the same direction (unlike Colts).

Should it matter that one has a sideplate, and the other allows access to innards via the trigger guard? Should it matter that one has a fore-and-aft cylinder release, and the other has a toggle? I mean, they're really the same gun, right?

Meanwhile, RickB, you want to attack those factors I listed between CZ75 and BHP that you find to be merely cosmetic, such as slight differences in width, or how the slide and frame are fitted.

You keep avoiding the fact that the BHP is a single action mechanism, with a fairly stiff break and short reset, while the CZ75 is a double action mechanism that also allows single action mode, with a more rolling break and a fairly long reset. (Unless you limit the CZ75 under discussion to the SA only model, in which case the break and reset are still different.)

Shoot the two side by side, and you won't call one a copy of the other. They are very different; their only similarities, other than grip shape (and the CZ is thicker, there, too) are cosmetic.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 12, 2012, 03:51 AM   #48
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
Don't make a statement unless you know better!

MLeake

Post #48

Well, don't kick the guy in the nards. LOL

You sure put it home there buddy, I agree with your attitude toward people that speak (shoot) first and ask questions later.

TBS, I agree (Mostly) with your statements for the most part, and I'm no dummy, I just play one on TV!

+P+
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old October 12, 2012, 05:44 AM   #49
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
Of all companies to concentrate on ergonomics, why a manufacturer from the Czech Republic? What posessed them to focus so hard on a fairly obscure design feature?
It has a lot less to do with ergos than it does CZ (as a company) being in the right place & at the right time & having the right product.
There's plenty of other examples of good to great guns that for one reason or another never went very far.

Take away the new factory the Czech government built & that CZ picked up for a fraction of the cost when industry privatized, the lifting of import bans when the Czech Republic tossed out communism, the Turkish military over run of 75b's that allowed for very low cost 75b's to be imported, a very favorable exchange rate @ the time, a good word from Cooper - and -CZ would just have been another "close but no cigar".....
Hal is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.16699 seconds with 7 queries