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Old October 8, 2012, 09:40 PM   #1
chris in va
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CZ ergos...why?

Guess I never really asked.

Of all companies to concentrate on ergonomics, why a manufacturer from the Czech Republic? What posessed them to focus so hard on a fairly obscure design feature?
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Old October 8, 2012, 10:07 PM   #2
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What?
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Old October 8, 2012, 10:15 PM   #3
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I'm not sure what the question or comment is.

CZ's don't work for me for a number of reasons. Doesn't mean that they don't work well for other people. Ergonomics is one reason that they don't work for me.
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Old October 8, 2012, 11:40 PM   #4
chris in va
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Let me rephrase.

CZ is well known for having an above average ergo grip. But why from a rather obscure part of the world like the CR? You would think Germany or the US. Granted JMB did make sure the 1911 had an 11 degree angle, which helps.
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Old October 8, 2012, 11:51 PM   #5
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Like the above, I don't think CZs are particularly good on ergonomics. Much too fat a grip//too long a trigger reach DA. This is true for me for all the DA service-size guns however.

As to the grip feel, I have heard (read?) that the Browning Hi-Power was an influence. It's known to be a great grip.

Also, CZ is from the former Czechoslovakia, not Botswana. I am sure they were very aware in 1975 of what was out there, and knew Hi-Powers sold worldwide to police and militaries, and designed the CZ 75 to be a competitor.

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Old October 8, 2012, 11:54 PM   #6
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From what I've heard the Czechs have always been well 'seasoned' in combat... I'd suspect their weapons reflect those experiences?

No doubt JMB ergos were an influence.

yeah the DA reach is a PITA.
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Old October 9, 2012, 04:02 AM   #7
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Central Europe has been the stage for major wars for centuries. Good portions of the Thirty Years War occurred in Bohemia, which is the old name for Czechoslovakia, which is the old name for the Czech Republic.

In other words, the people there have a long history of fighting.

CZ guns have been around for a long time.

Also, if not for the Soviet invasion, who knows how advanced the Czechs might be? Prague has been a major cultural and arts center for a long time (again, counting in centuries).

It's not like CZs come from some backwater.
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Old October 9, 2012, 06:10 AM   #8
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They have a long history of gun design and gun making ! Successful ones at that .Some are listed as German design !!!
The company now has been successful because they pay attention to customer demands such as properly making DG rifles with crossbolts and bedding. Good quality too'
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Old October 9, 2012, 07:17 AM   #9
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The grip ergos pretty much "copy" the Browning High Power
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Old October 9, 2012, 07:23 AM   #10
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Saying CZ ergo's are better is quite debateable. They chose a differnt path, not necessarily better. The CZ has several serious design flaws that have prevented it from ever being a major player in the worlds military and police choices. Many of those are ergonomic problems that affect function.
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Old October 9, 2012, 07:25 AM   #11
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So much misinformation, I don't know where to begin.
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Old October 9, 2012, 08:30 AM   #12
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First Ergonomics are not "obscure". Every handgun has to be held by human hands and ergonomics affect that.


Quote:
The CZ has several serious design flaws that have prevented it from ever being a major player in the worlds military and police choices. Many of those are ergonomic problems that affect function.
Huh? Isreal is a pretty major player and they had a CZ clone at their side before moving to glocks. If your talking about the US and such the Cold War prevented and western power from adopting them... And the Russian's have always prefered to design their own weapons.

CZ-75 are one of the most cloned and copied designs on the planet. Military and Police forces all over the planet have used the CZ. Put simply it is one of the most successful pistol designs in history..... And for good reason.
Now in 2012 the design is getting long in the tooth and everyone seems to want polymers and striker fired pistols but the CZ-75 is still being produced and it wouldn't be if it wasn't still selling.



Want to bash ergo's look at Glocks... Grip angle is the worst I've ever seen. (I would even prefer the Tokarev's grip angle to the Glunk's)
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Old October 9, 2012, 08:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Want to bash ergo's look at Glocks... Grip angle is the worst I've ever seen
I'll 2nd that... I went to buy a 10mm a couple years back, & was sure I was going to buy a Glack ( my 1st black plastic pistol )... I just couldn't spend the money on the gun, the grip felt like I was holding a chunk of 2" X 2" board... I ended up getting a Witness ( wouldn't you know it... a CZ clone )
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Old October 9, 2012, 10:18 AM   #14
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CZ 75 P-07

Mine is their polymer entry. I'm not overjoyed with the design but that gun is the easiest handling, straightest shooting handgun I own. It feels perfect for tactical use.
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Old October 9, 2012, 10:24 AM   #15
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I'll 2nd that... I went to buy a 10mm a couple years back, & was sure I was going to buy a Glack ( my 1st black plastic pistol )... I just couldn't spend the money on the gun, the grip felt like I was holding a chunk of 2" X 2" board... I ended up getting a Witness ( wouldn't you know it... a CZ clone )
I not goo goo over Glock, but I never met one I didn't like or shoot well, I just bought a G20SF, I really like it.

My CZ75B did have to much palm swell, but a quick change to Hogue and I was back on track, nice feeling easy pointer.

Quote:
The grip ergos pretty much "copy" the Browning High Power
I'm not sure about that, I never compare them side by side, have you?
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Old October 9, 2012, 10:32 AM   #16
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Still regret selling my old High Power, but had both at the same time, ( several CZ-75's & a vintage High Power ) & while maybe not exact, they fit very close to the same in my hand... FIL collected CZ's & I now have a representation of most of their previous models, & ( I think ) all had the squarer grips up until the CZ-75 design... & while I'm not sure off the top of my head, I think the Browning High Power was released before the CZ-75
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Old October 9, 2012, 12:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
So much misinformation, I don't know where to begin.
At the Beginning!

Quote:
Central Europe has been the stage for major wars for centuries. Good portions of the Thirty Years War occurred in Bohemia, which is the old name for Czechoslovakia, which is the old name for the Czech Republic.

In other words, the people there have a long history of fighting.

CZ guns have been around for a long time.

Also, if not for the Soviet invasion, who knows how advanced the Czechs might be? Prague has been a major cultural and arts center for a long time (again, counting in centuries).

It's not like CZs come from some backwater.
This is what I couldn't remember!

Quote:
The CZ has several serious design flaws that have prevented it from ever being a major player in the worlds military and police choices. Many of those are ergonomic problems that affect function.
LOL. I believe its one of the most WIDELY USED AND COPIED pistols in the world... man times are really tuff for CZ.
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Old October 9, 2012, 12:54 PM   #18
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Probably just me but i don't know what you are trying to say. Or what point you are making. I have one and find the ergonomics fine.


Czech Republic: Used by the Czech Armed Forces.[12] Also used by Czech police forces.[9]
Georgia [13]
Iraq: Iraqi Army.[14]
Lithuania: Lithuanian Armed Forces.[15]
Poland: Polish police (limited use)[16]
Russian Federation: Used by law enforcement [17]
Slovakia: Slovak rail police, military police and the elite paramilitary tactical unit (Slovak: Kukláči)[18]
Thailand: Used by Royal Thai Army special units [19]
Turkey: Turkish police forces.[9]
United States: Used by several police departments[9] and Delta Force.[20]

Last edited by manta49; October 9, 2012 at 01:04 PM.
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Old October 9, 2012, 01:19 PM   #19
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... & while I'm not sure off the top of my head, I think the Browning High Power was released before the CZ-75
I think you might be right, I'm sure the HP was made before 1975.
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Old October 9, 2012, 01:22 PM   #20
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I have a Browning Hi Power MK III, and two CZ-75 variants, a 75B, and 75D PCR. The pistols are totally different except both use the Browning locking breech action, but then so does Glock and most other semi-auto pistols. The ergos and the grips are also totally different, as is grip angle. I like them both, but they are very different.
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Old October 9, 2012, 01:47 PM   #21
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"Much too fat a grip//too long a trigger reach DA. This is true for me for all the DA service-size guns however."

I think they're all too small.

The FNP-45 is about right.

John
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Old October 9, 2012, 01:53 PM   #22
Tom Servo
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Quote:
. The pistols are totally different except both use the Browning locking breech action
Actually, the slide/frame interface and barrel/slide lockup are more similar to the Sig P210.
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Old October 9, 2012, 05:49 PM   #23
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I can't say why CZ ended up where they did on my P-01, but I'm glad they did. It is distinctly better in form and fit. Compared to others like XD and Glock- those just don't get me excited. Yes the G-34 is better at distance for targets. That is not the goal in this post. You wrap the hand on a P-01, feel it's heft, and feel the secure fit in the grip, and it just works right. I have and shoot XD's and Glocks for various reasons, but the fit of the CZ is quite better in my hand. If I was limited to just one 9mm, it would be the CZ P-01.
Despite my other posts about certain ammo, I do maintain this is the 9mm of choice for carry. I just have to do my part in making sure I don't load it up with an assortment of oddball ammo. As I said in a different post, my choice of a couple different brands of premium +P work just fine while assorted cheaper ammo did get stuck in the magazines. In the back of my mind, I do recall another post suggesting a magazine spring change. I may or may not do that.

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Old October 9, 2012, 06:07 PM   #24
Scouse
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Why not? What exactly qualifies Czech Republic as "obscure"?

Ancient people in a land with a long history of bloody conflict.

It does not surprise me that a manufacturer from that part of the world (or indeed any other part of the world for that matter) is capable of producing a pistol that feels right in the hand to many people.
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Old October 9, 2012, 06:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Of all companies to concentrate on ergonomics, why a manufacturer from the Czech Republic? What possessed them to focus so hard on a fairly obscure design feature?
Unlike other Warsaw Pact countries, the Czechs had a rather long history of innovative, interesting, and well made firearms design and many Czech designs have long been popular throughout the world including the CZ-27 pistol, ZB-26 light machine gun, and Vz-24 Mauser rifle. Also, unlike many of the communist "comrades" the Czechs were fairly well known for bucking the Soviets when it came to small arms. The Czechs never adopted any of the common Soviet small arms like the Mosin-Nagant, SKS, AK-47, TT-33 Tokarev, or Makarov PM but rather chose to use their own indigenous designs such as the Vz-52 rifle and pistol, Vz-58 Assault Rifle, Vz-61 Skorpion submachine gun, and CZ-82 pistol. Finally, the CZ-75 was designed from the start for export sales so it is unsurprising that the Czechs would borrow popular features from other successful pistols including the 1911, GP-35 Hi-Power, Sig P210, and Walther P38.
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