The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old October 8, 2012, 11:43 AM   #26
pgdion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: MPLS, MN
Posts: 1,115
Quote:
My attitude is once they hit the stairs, they are no longer a burglar. They have now put my family in jeopardy.
This ... the bedrooms are upstairs and so is the family, the stairs are the boundary, the line between steeling my tv and threatening my family, step on those, you get shot.

I've thought about being vulnerable about shots through the floor too, at the top of my stairs is the main bathroom with all tile. That makes the floor 3/4" plywood, 1/2" cement board, 1/2" tile/cement, with 5/8 of sheet-rock before that (ceiling below). The bathroom floor should offer some protection. The kids have those captains beds that are packed full of junk underneath, they just need to stay in their beds, and the wife can shelter in the master bath ... also tiled. I think shots through the floor are unlikely, but you do think about those things.
__________________
597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time!
pgdion is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 06:41 PM   #27
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
Quote:
Posted by Nnobby45: I'd also make my stand at the front door, if possible, and not let them get in in the first place.
And then OldMarksman, with his years of wisdom, pointed out.
Quote:
That'll work--if and only if (1) they all happen to decide to come in through the front door; (2) you know about their intentions in time to so act; and (3) they give you a legal reason to shoot them before they enter; and 4) you can somehow conduct an effective defense that way.
I very clearly said, "if possile".

LOL, Thanks for the admonition that if they came in the back door, I wouldn't be able to make my stand at the front door. I'm writing that down now, to preclude myself from forgetting and I intend to memorize it no matter how long it takes. As for their intentions, give me a break. If they're forcing their way in I have a good enough idea. Didn't say anything about shooting before they enter.

Just saying that I'd rather not let home invaders get in the house in the first place. If they are already in, I'm not letting them up the stairs. If they are upstairs, I'd lock myself in my bedroom and guard the door.

Last edited by Nnobby45; October 8, 2012 at 06:54 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 08:27 PM   #28
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,186
Quote:
If you are at the top of the stairs, you already have pretty good cover.

If you lie on your stomach and peer over the stairs, you will present a real small target. Your weapon will already be trained on the space any intruder must pass through to come up. You will even have a natural gun rest.

No cover is perfect, but you WILL have a tremendous advantage.

very nice point
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old October 8, 2012, 09:43 PM   #29
1Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: west central Illinois
Posts: 277
Alright, be nice. My perceptions of various flaws in the HD situations above:

How much time are we talking about from the recognition of the threat and reaction to the threat? Perimeter alarm system? Mark 1 hearing unit? Dogs barking then silence?

In my house, if someone breaks down the front door, with death for us on his mind, I have less than a few seconds to react. "I'd meet them at the front door" works only if they send you an invitation or rings the front door bell. "Hellooo, I'm here to kill you. Please let me in"

As far as the BGs shooting through the ceiling to get you...really? What type of HD scenario are we talking about here? TEOTWAWKI? The BGs would have to know the floorplan of your upstairs unless they brought lots of ammo. If this is the case, I think your stuff is in big trouble anyway. Heck, shoot down through the floor and get some.

Laying down on the floor at the top of the stairs and having a steady rest? How many seconds have elapsed for you to become alert, assesed the threat, arm your self and set up your kill zone? Using the above scenario, I'd bet there'd be some cover fire laid down soon as the BGs advanced on you if they were serious. I have a stairwell that goes up 8 steps then a landing then 8 more up. There is a point where the BG could shoot over and nail me laying there.

The more I've read, the more I think this is more like a Hollywood scenario than more common HD scenarios in the real world for the most part.

I apologize since I've probably offended all of you but I raise,IHMO, valid points. It's easy to get the mindset that "I've got it all covered" but do we really?

Hobie

Last edited by 1Hobie; October 8, 2012 at 10:23 PM.
1Hobie is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 01:24 AM   #30
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
remember teasle in first blood? he was waiting for rambo on the stairwell...didn't end to good and yes people can fire thru the floors. there is a smaller target too...if someone fires a shotgun blast up the stairs you're in trouble. would if someone comes thru the upstairs window? would if you need to get outside? if the stairs work for you I don't see a problem with it...I am actually not putting down the notion. I am just picturing my stairs in my home and shooting at the bedroom door from whatever part of the bedroom I am in seems much better and logical for me. BG can shoot thru the door, fire here and there and never come close to hitting the target. meanwhile I have an easy shot. Stairs aren't gonna work in my situation but if you are already on the stairs before this all goes down you have a better chance. I have always been a huge advocate of 'tough luck' as well if someone is in our home but your scenario does bring that up....would if the neighborhood teenage girl has snuck out to come meet your son? well I guess you will shoot as soon as someone crosses that stairwell. no, in my room like an early post mentioned is the way to go...911 called(no need to stay on phone)...perp would have to be in a blackout to be stupid enough to come thru that threshold and I can warn the perp that way too(if I decide to). I have a much better chance fortifying the room...there's only one or two ways in and a window is a way out for me and my family if necessary too
just my thoughts but I respect the stairs notion if that works in your situation
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 07:17 AM   #31
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,936
If I remember correctly, there was a very good thread on TFL some time ago about making/equipping a 'safe room' for an occasion such as this.
Our safe room is the bedroom and given the chance that's where it would be best for us to be.
shortwave is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 08:42 AM   #32
jnichols2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2012
Posts: 114
Every house is a little bit different.

Sometimes the stairs are good, sometimes the bedroom is better. Or you may have a reinforced closet somewhere.

I still don't like the front door unless you have someone to cover the back door.

Assess your own situation, don't rely on Rambo movies.

Remember; if you only have seconds, but can set up a situation where the BG doesn't have those seconds, you have a big advantage.

If you need a gaurantee, hire a round the clock security team. Or build a steel reinforced room and sleep in it. Otherwise, set up the best scenario your house presents and know you at least have the home team advantage.

If you are attacked by four professional hit men with shotguns. Well; it just wasn't your day. If you get invaded by 1 or 2 amateurs that don't expect you to fight back, then the Bad Guys won't have a very good day. Either way, you did your best.
jnichols2 is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 09:22 AM   #33
HALL,AUSTIN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2011
Location: asheville north carolina
Posts: 409
Identifying the perp is something I didnt give thought... But I take my stand at the stairs. Dad covers the back door and stays in his room, calls the authorities, I take cover by the top of the stairs and cover the stairwell/ front door.
Flaws in my plan are 2nd story break-ins or if someone with no ill intent sneaks in. I will be buying a weapon light now. I also like the challenge/password idea.
HALL,AUSTIN is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 10:25 AM   #34
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Posted by Nobby45: Didn't say anything about shooting before they enter.
I apparently misunderstood when I interpreted taking a stand at the door and not letting them get into the house as an intention to use deadly force before they entered.

Quote:
Just saying that I'd rather not let home invaders get in the house in the first place.
I think everyone would agree with that.

Quote:
If they are already in, I'm not letting them up the stairs. If they are upstairs, I'd lock myself in my bedroom and guard the door.
I think that everything would depend upon where the invaders should happen to enter and where the defender and other occupants happen to be at the time.

If I am upstairs, I would intend to let the threat come to me if he or she or they should so choose. I cannot cover the stairs safely, however.

If I am downstairs, I have to be consider being confronted by someone coming up through the door to the basement, kicking in the front door, kicking in one of two other doors, or entering from the porch though a window. Getting up the stairs to defend from a bedroom would likely not be safe unless I somehow detected an attempted entry before it happened.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 10:40 AM   #35
dawg23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 401
Quote:
If you are at the top of the stairs, you already have pretty good cover.

If you lie on your stomach and peer over the stairs, you will present a real small target. Your weapon will already be trained on the space any intruder must pass through to come up. You will even have a natural gun rest.

No cover is perfect, but you WILL have a tremendous advantage.
I presume everone understands the difference between cover and concealment.
__________________
.
www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net
dawg23 is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 11:33 AM   #36
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
panic room, escape plan....

That's not a bad plan but I'd rally every family member in the main or master bedroom then block the access doorway/door. It would be ideal if the room has a seperate door or hatch to the attic-crawlspace to use as an escape route if needed.
Keep in mind how the 2 scumbag killers/robbers in CT had the dad seperate(basement) then killed-raped the females & set the house on fire.
Being away from the family members or standing alone in a narrow hallway could be risky.
Author, sworn LE officer & tactics instructor Massad Ayoob also says to stay together in one area & hunker down until LE gets on scene.
In a home invasion or armed robbery event, I'd rather a bad guy(s) come to me on my terms rather than me go to them.
To run drills or prepare for any possible events(phone down, fire-smoke, injury, weapon malfunction, etc) during a real lethal force event.

I've worked in the security/protective service field for over twenty years & served four years in the US armed forces. I too would set up a home security plan.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 12:15 PM   #37
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,376
Lets stay on *OUR* side of the fatal funnel. We can what-if, what if from now till doomsday. Get your people together, stay on your side of the line, call the cops, and defend the access point.

Does anyone here have an example of a home invader shooting through stairs or floors that didn't happen in a movie? No? Lets prepare for problem one- not problem ten.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 04:45 PM   #38
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Quote:
Assess your own situation, don't rely on Rambo movies.
thx for my afternoon laugh. I can go back to reading your post and subsequent ones now LOL. You are right of course, it just popped in my head....great movie by the way.

rambo trivia:

1982 first blood begins the very same way that "rambo" ends(the last movie) - John J Rambo carrying his green army dufflebag(this time going home)
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 04:51 PM   #39
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
I also agree with staying together. first off, i don't want to rely on someone keeping their plan, remembering their role, etc. too many variables especially when emergencies arise the stuff hits the fan and the link in that chain can break.

Quote:
Does anyone here have an example of a home invader shooting through stairs or floors that didn't happen in a movie? No? Lets prepare for problem one- not problem ten.
that doesn't change the fact that the stair stand would be bad at best in my situation/home. If the BG knows where you are he has a better chance of giving you a really bad day or headache. you need to look ahead at the chain of events that can occur with decision to problem one so other cans of worms aren't opened.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old October 9, 2012, 05:29 PM   #40
Woody55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2012
Location: East Texas
Posts: 407
I agree with the OP about taking up a defensive position. The house clearing we did was always based on rapidly building up overwhelming force at critical points. In addition, securing your rear and flanks was a good idea - it's easy to get ambushed. I short, clearing a building is a team sport. Kind of tough if you are the only one on the team.

I also agree with his choice of position. Practically speaking, there is only one avenue of approach to the second floor and that is where his family is. Whether he is at the top of the stairs covering the entrance to the stairwell or back in a room covering the exit is a detail best left to the guy who is going to do it.

His choice of position also distinguishes between what is worthy of using deadly force to protect (people) and what isn't (downstairs property). I agree with that too.

I also like the idea of taking the initiative by letting the burglar(s) know there is someone in the house. I expect that most of them would depart with something they could carry. That's fine by me. If they keep coming knowing the home is occupied, I think it reasonable to fear that they are armed and capable of dealing with opposition.

Finally, while it depends on the weapon, there isn't a whole lot of cover (protection) in a frame house. And my wife would kill me if I put sand bags in her nest.
Woody55 is offline  
Old October 19, 2012, 03:39 PM   #41
publius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Location: Mississippi/Texas
Posts: 2,465
I like your idea of covering the stairs while the family is locked in the bedroom. When I lived with my parents, in a large 3 story, that was my Dad's and my strategy. It was difficult to get everybody in one room quickly but Dad and I would meet at the top of the second story staircase and cover it while everyone else was safe in their own rooms. Had to do it twice, both false alarms, but we were verey quick and I beleive would have been very effective.
__________________
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
publius is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 03:03 PM   #42
Valerko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2012
Location: NY
Posts: 154
So ,I guess my plan of arming everybody ,from my 7 year old to my wife, up to their teeth and go out guns lazing is No,No
Valerko is offline  
Old October 20, 2012, 03:45 PM   #43
tepin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2006
Location: MN
Posts: 119
In my place, when the alarm goes off, my wife heads into the closet to watch the alarm panel (she is armed too) and I head to the back of my stairs. My stairwell is open with spindles & 36" railing which allows me to either blow-out the backbone of anyone coming up or drill through the top of their head down into their neck. I figure if the alarm doesn't scare them away then they have willingly purchased a one-way ticket to some other place. Let the lead guy get half way up, start with the guy behind him, the leads instinct will be to turn and run, tripping on his partner and walking into a lead wall (AR15 pistol with 30 round mags).

The only concern I have not addressed yet is hearing protection. Shooting a gun in the home cannot be a pleasant experience; much less pleasant for the person at the receiving end.

How many folks here incorporate electronic hearing protection as part of their home defense plan?
tepin is offline  
Old October 25, 2012, 08:43 PM   #44
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
The best advice is to hole up, . . . upstairs, . . . call the LEO's, . . . and hold your ground.

Personally, . . . I have a 1st floor BR, . . . but if I had my son's, upstairs, . . . and I knew bg's were in the house, . . . first thing I would do is get the swivel chair on rollers and get it near the top of the stairs, . . .

Bg starts up stairs, . . . meets chair half way or so, . . . also meets MBR while he is struggling with a 65 lb chair on wheels coming down on him.

I figure with either 20 or 30 MBR rounds and a 65 lb chair, . . . plus maybe a dozen or so .45ACP's, . . . he'll be convinced to go elsewhere, . . . if he is able.

Being at the top of the stairs is why it is called taking the high ground. It is a positive advantage, . . . only lessened if the bg can shoot up toward you through the floor.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old October 25, 2012, 11:46 PM   #45
PH/CIB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 281
http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...listic-Shield/

http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...le-Protection/

http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...8-Flex-Shield/

I have no idea of how well ballistic shields or ballistic walls or ballistic blankets work or how much they cost, but I have thought of buying two ballistic shields and keeping them under the bed so if the dog or my alarm system goes off my Wife and I can call the police and bunker down in the bedroom with my shotgun or rifle guarding the door...As my Wife is a Librarian and an avid reader I could probably just position both of us behind one of her many bookcases full of books although I would probably get a hernia doing it! The great thing about a ballistic shield is that it is quick to deploy and it is movable cover and can be positioned in front of you or below you or above you wherever the threat and the incoming fire might be coming from.
__________________
Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net

Last edited by PH/CIB; October 26, 2012 at 12:00 AM.
PH/CIB is offline  
Old October 26, 2012, 12:20 AM   #46
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 1,573
My personal opinion... the argument of stairwell vs bedroom depends entirely on the layout of the house. In some floor plans, there may be almost equal advantages to both. Some places the stairs will be better, some the bedroom. Gathering family together in one room is a concern. If you are dealing with someone intent on doing you harm, you probably don't have a lot of time. Waking up takes a few seconds, then a few more to fully understand the gravity of what's happening. By the time you get a gun up, you may not have time to gather family. If it's just you (or you and wifey) and gathering family is not a concern, then the bedroom "line in the sand" may be your best bet.

Quote:
Put a small night-lite on the bottom area of the stairs, and do not light up the top. That way, you can see down, but the intruder cannot see up as well.
This can be made to be a major advantage not to be easily dismissed. Proper use of lighting is important in a home defense scenario.
5whiskey is offline  
Old October 26, 2012, 06:49 PM   #47
357 Python
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2007
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 701
If you choose to stay at the top of the stairs which sounds like a doable idea I would add some things. One is material that is bullet resistant where you plan to make your stand. Another is a mounted spotlight that points down the stairs with a switch that you can access from your location. When a BG comes up the stairs flip the switch and they are blinded and you may not have to fire a shot, a big win. My home is quite different and my stand would be from the bedroom door. I have a clear feild of fire to my front door and the stairs that leads to our family room and back door.
357 Python is offline  
Old October 28, 2012, 08:21 AM   #48
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 946
I have a .45 double stack and a few shotguns along with an AR. I dont worry about home invasions as the odds are very long that it will happen. If it does then they will face a 55yr old Jarhead with trigger time who is well armed and ready to take care of business. I dont live my life worried about what may happen. i just keep a few guns close by and will deal with it if it happens. As soon as most dirtbags know they are up against a guy with a gun they will turn tail and run like hell or they will die
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old October 29, 2012, 07:02 PM   #49
saands
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 1999
Posts: 1,564
I like the idea of the night light ... it also performs well as designed by helping guests not trip in the middle of the night

But in this scenario, I like remote controlled lights (like those by X-10) better. With them, you (or better yet, one of the family) can make lights go on and off downstairs, even though you are all hunkered-down upstairs.

One thing that I have seen in other posts that I liked was the idea to attach a chem-light and a bright colored streamer to the key you toss out the window ... that way your key is easy to spot, day or night ... even though it is more likely that this would play out at night.

Saands
saands is offline  
Old October 29, 2012, 10:49 PM   #50
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,844
I'd rather climb narrow stairs under fire than be under fire in a lot of scenarios. Like a volcanos rim, while parachuting, walking out of the ocean with fins on(backwards), in a tree, with a straight jacket on, and while traversing a long drainage/sewer pipe. That makes climbing stairs at least seventh. So no i wouldn't set up at the top of the stairs unless you DON'T have one of the other scenarios available and if you don't you aren't well enough prepared.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
home invasion , robbery

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14517 seconds with 8 queries