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Old November 27, 2012, 12:03 AM   #1
Chris9472
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.22 LR for carjacking defense?

I just wanted your opinions on using a .22LR handgun as a defense against carjackers.

I understand that the .22LR is not considered a suitable round for defense, but my main concern in this situation is hearing damage. A few years back, there were some assaults at the Wisconsin State Fair where some thugs were literally pulling people from their vehicles, kicking people of motorcycles, etc.

It occurred to me that if any of these thugs attempted to pull me out of my vehicle, they very well might get a nasty surprise. It also occurred to me that I would probably suffer permanent hearing damage if I ever had to fire my .38spl inside my vehicle. I happen to be a music aficionado, so the thought of that happening to me is tantamount to a death sentence. I'd almost rather take my chances with the thugs beating me.

I'm not suggesting that I would carry a .22LR as my primary defensive weapon, just that I might stash one somewhere in the car within easy reach to use if something like that ever happened. Firing .22LR inside a vehicle may be tolerable as far as hearing goes, plus it would be at such a close range that you would likely get some head/face shots, which I'm quite certain would be more then a little irritable to the recipient. At the very least, it would buy me time to get away.

I happen to own an LCR.38spl+p, and I was thinking of getting the .22LR version mainly for this purpose, plus as a practice gun as it handles pretty much the same as the .38spl, with much less recoil.

Last edited by Chris9472; November 27, 2012 at 12:13 AM.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:12 AM   #2
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I will take my chances.

I prefer using enough gun and making sure I at least have a chance to listen to music later in life, than compromise to that level and risk even being alive...

Also understand that a .22 LR out of a short barrel like that can be upwards of 140 dB, which is enough to damage your hearing....

Last edited by allaroundhunter; November 27, 2012 at 12:21 AM.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:16 AM   #3
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Yes, it could be useful remember sometimes just the site of a firearm can be a strong deterrent. While I generally would prefer something with a little more oomph I think a well placed .22lr can be an attention getter.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:20 AM   #4
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Yes, it could be useful remember sometimes just the site of a firearm can be a strong deterrent. While I generally would prefer something with a little more oomph I think a well placed .22lr can be an attention getter.
Exactly. I believe if the victims at the State Fair incident were armed and stuck a gun in any of those punks faces as they approached their vehicles most of them probably would have fled the scene in a heartbeat. If not, a few shots would give you time to drive away.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:21 AM   #5
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I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but I'm pretty sure it takes more than one shot to permanently damage your hearing. A friend of mine was in the Army before ear plugs came into use for training situations, and he can hear me speaking to him when we're in mcDonald's having coffee. However, I can't recall whether he uses hearing aids. I think he does. However, he went through officer basic without ear plugs and he still is able to enjoy recorded music at home. I'd say ask your doctor and go from there.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:24 AM   #6
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I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but I'm pretty sure it takes more than one shot to permanently damage your hearing. A friend of mine was in the Army before ear plugs came into use for training situations, and he can hear me speaking to him when we're in mcDonald's having coffee. However, I can't recall whether he uses hearing aids. I think he does. However, he went through officer basic without ear plugs and he still is able to enjoy recorded music at home. I'd say ask your doctor and go from there.
I would hope your right, but firing a decent sized caliber inside the small confines of a vehicle doesn't sound like a good thing.

There was a guy who lost most of his hearing in one ear from firing a single .308Win round.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:29 AM   #7
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As we have discussed here many times, not the the first or the best choice, but beats fists, feet and foul language.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:32 AM   #8
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Better deaf than dead.

I served for 10 years in the Field Artillery (M110a2 and M109a2/a3).... I had several occasions when I did not have earplugs/headset/CVC helmet on and got whacked with way more muzzle blast than a handgun would impart. I spent many hours in close proximity to large diesel engines in teeth rattling tracked vehichles and Very Large Trucks at Ludicrous Speed on various Autobahns ...... hearing damage is cumulative........

My hearing is not perfect, but my quality of life is better having done what I did then than if I had than if I submitted the whims of .... "persons"...... who would offer me violence like the Wisconsin State Fair deal...... if only "pour l'encouragement des autres".... "when Good Men do nothing, Evil is unopposed."
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:46 AM   #9
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I served for 10 years in the Field Artillery (M110a2 and M109a2/a3).... I had several occasions when I did not have earplugs/headset/CVC helmet on and got whacked with way more muzzle blast than a handgun would impart. I spent many hours in close proximity to large diesel engines in teeth rattling tracked vehichles and Very Large Trucks at Ludicrous Speed on various Autobahns ...... hearing damage is cumulative........

My hearing is not perfect, but my quality of life is better having done what I did then than if I had than if I submitted the whims of .... "persons"...... who would offer me violence like the Wisconsin State Fair deal...... if only "pour l'encouragement des autres".... "when Good Men do nothing, Evil is unopposed."
Perhaps your right and I'm overreacting. Thanks for the feedback.

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Better deaf than dead.
It depends on what you value in life. Some musicians would rather be dead then loose a hand, some artists would rather be dead then go blind.

I feel that a .22LR in the vehicle for carjackers would be a fair compromise between keeping my hearing and saving my life. Plus, I'd still be carrying my .38spl for everything else.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:20 AM   #10
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ChrisLCR,

Have you considered getting a silencer that you could use with a quality .45 ACP handgun? That would give you a reasonable defensive cartridge, sub-sonic projectile and protect your hearing.

You might want to read some posts in the NFA Guns and Gear section of this forum.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:22 AM   #11
Chris9472
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Quote:
ChrisLCR,

Have you considered getting a silencer that you could use with a quality .45 ACP handgun? That would give you a reasonable defensive cartridge, sub-sonic projectile and protect your hearing.

You might want to read some posts in the NFA Guns and Gear section of this forum.
OK, but I thought those were illegal? It doesn't seem that would look very good if I ever had to go before the court.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:34 AM   #12
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OK, but I thought those were illegal? It doesn't seem that would look very good if I ever had to go before the court.
ChrisLCR......

You really should go check NFA Guns and Gear. If suppressors were illegal, most of those guys would be in jail 3 times over....

They really are not that hard to acquire, just require patience and a slightly more in depth background check.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:46 AM   #13
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OK, but I thought those were illegal?
They are legal in most states, provided you get the proper ATF paperwork done.

Me, I'd deal with the ringing in my ears, as it will subside long before the legal issues will, even without an NFA item involved.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:12 AM   #14
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I am curious, from the situation described at the state fair, would not a bit of situational awareness and locking car doors prevented the need for use of a firearm?
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:16 AM   #15
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IIRC, cars and people were attcked as they left the fair at closing time. Due to heavy traffic, they could not just drive away. Mobs of dozens broke windows and beat anyone who had anythig to say about it.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:37 AM   #16
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Ahh, craziness.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:37 AM   #17
Chris9472
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Quote:
I am curious, from the situation described at the state fair, would not a bit of situational awareness and locking car doors prevented the need for use of a firearm?
Yes, I'm sure it would have helped some, but people were being assaulted as they were approaching their vehicles, or dragged out as they were getting into them, kicked off their motorcyles, etc.

There were roving gangs of thugs running around looking for a fight with the first person they came across. There's only so much an unarmed person could do in that situation. The one thing nobody did was draw a weapon in SD against those punks. I wonder how fast they would have cleared out if they'd had?

Of course, that was shortly before the CCW became legal in WI. I wonder what would happen if those thugs tried that again now?

Last edited by Chris9472; November 27, 2012 at 02:44 AM.
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Old November 27, 2012, 06:39 AM   #18
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Your plan has some merit, esp. if you're getting the .22lr LCR as an understudy for your current LCR. But I don't think the decible difference b/t the two fired in a confined space would be enough to make a difference.

Another idea would be to get a semiauto pistol in a subsonic caliber like a Bersa .380 or a LCP. Eliminating the barrel/cylinder gap might reduce the noise somewhat.

Still another idea....get a gun that can inflict multiple wound channels with one shot to reduce the need for multiple shots. Something in .410 like a Taurus Public Defender or Bond Arms derringer.
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Old November 27, 2012, 07:44 AM   #19
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I dunno, but I'm beginning to think that the best defense against being car-jacked is a manual transmission.
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Old November 27, 2012, 07:50 AM   #20
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Chris, . . .

You need: 1) a round that will do the job, 2) one you can carry more or less 24/7, and 3) something subsonic.

The answer to all this is very simply a commander size .45ACP.

The "report" from that particular caliber is less of a sharp "Crack" than it is an extended "Boom". And you can buy lower powered rounds that really take the noise factor down.

It is NOTICEABLY less irritating than either a .38 special or .357, . . . .41 mag, or even .44 special.

"Silencers" are cool, I know a guy who has a couple of em, and I have shot em, . . . they are NOT a CCW type idea.

Long and short, . . . the .45 has also one other thing going for it, . . . the .22 may take a full magazine to do the job, . . . the perceived vision the bg has when he sees the business end of a 1911, . . . may be enough for him to decide he has to go change his refrigerator light or something. If it isn't, . . . one or two at the most rounds in his bod, . . . you will have discouraged him big time, . . . OR, . . . you have a problem needing a battle rifle.

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Old November 27, 2012, 08:09 AM   #21
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I'm not a doctor either, but I do not believe that one to three shots fired from a .38 special, .380 or smaller caliber, from within a vehicle would cause permanent hearing loss. This is just my opinion from a non-expert and open to correction from those who have better information about such matters. But as has been said many times on TFL, one's choice in a defensive firearm is a highly individual decision. I would go with the .38 special, but perhaps if I were the conductor of a symphony orchestra, I might feel differently and go with the .22 lr, or some other means of self-defense. There is such a thing as a "psychological stop;" meaning a person hit by a bullet (even if the wound is not life threatening) is likely to stop whatever they were doing in order to avoid being shot again. I'd prefer the .38 but I would not feel unarmed with the .22. Why not carry one and keep the other in the car? From my understanding of what happened at the Wisconsin State Fair and several other incidents around the country that summer, a quick reload (New York or otherwise) may have been necessary.

Last edited by Rifleman1952; November 27, 2012 at 04:58 PM.
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Old November 27, 2012, 11:59 AM   #22
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Quote:
Rifleman1952

I'm not a doctor either, but I do not believe that one to three shots fired from a .38 special, .380 or smaller caliber, from within a vehicle would cause permanent hearing loss.
You are wrong.
Any of those cartridges fired in the open would cause permanent hearing loss to some degree. Fired in a closed vehicle the effect would be increased greatly.

Check out this link http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml to see the various sound pressure levels of many cartridges. Of the 12 center fire pistol cartridges listed the lowest level is 152.4 dB for the .32 S&W long. This is well over the thresh hold to cause hearing loss.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:56 PM   #23
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I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but I'm pretty sure it takes more than one shot to permanently damage your hearing.
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I'm not a doctor either, but I do not believe that one to three shots fired from a .38 special, .380 or smaller caliber, from within a vehicle would cause permanent hearing loss.
You would both be very wrong, all it takes is one single exposure to suffer permanent damage, and when inside a vehicle the blast will be almost doubled. I fired a single .357 with no protection and my left ear has high frequency hearing loss and tinnitus. If you don't believe me research it. Also before you go on to say it cant happen from just one shot, mods have warned posters about such and will ban you for endangering peoples well being with false information. Hearing loss is no joke, especially when you get stuck with Tinnitus which is permanent ringing in the ear.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:36 PM   #24
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A .22lr might be enough to stop them, but I would personally prefer something a little larger. I would probably go with my Ruger LCP. If I feel my life is in danger to the point of having to draw a weapon and fire, I want enough enough gun to stop the threat. Some may argue that the LCP is not enough gun. If the choice comes down to my life and that of those around me versus a little hearing damage, I will take the shot and save my life and deal with hearing loss.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:39 PM   #25
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Three times in my life I have had to produce a firearm in self-defense. Never fired. Bad guys are not very smart, but they are smart enough to know they do not want to be shot with any gun. In all three of those instances the gun I used was a Ruger Single Six in .22 lr.
My carry is a Walther style .22 lr.
Now, if I frequented dark alleys populated by 250 pound druggies my choice might be different. But, I don't.
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