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Old October 5, 2012, 12:17 PM   #1
Davey
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Round got pushed into case.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1349457397.602490.jpg

Round on right was in the chamber. Round on left was on top of the magazine. It is slightly shorter than the rest of my factory ammo.

Regular Federal 9mm rounds. Sig P226 Tac Ops.

I shudder to think what would of happened to me or my wife.

How does this happen? I have this obsessive compulsion to slightly pull back on the slide to check if its loaded. Do I need to stop doing this?

Glad I decided to clean my gun today!
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Old October 5, 2012, 12:27 PM   #2
TunnelRat
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Couple questions.

1. You saying you use FMJ for carry/home defense? Just curious as that is how your post sounds to me. If so I just caution against the use of cheaper ammo for that purpose. Both because of performance and because of quality issues that might arise that are somewhat mitigated with more expensive ammo.

2. How many times had that round been re-chambered? I tend to shoot off the chambered round every month just to be on the safe side (use one round for chambering that month, shoot it beginning of next at the range). The difference is sometimes noticeable, though nothing near that.

What you're seeing is called setback. It can and does happen. It's something that needs to be watched for. Some cartridges will have a strong cannelure in an effort to prevent this.
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Old October 5, 2012, 12:37 PM   #3
flightline
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It's not exactly comforting, but I doubt it would have damaged anything. There's a pretty generous safety factor built in; plenty for the marginal increase in pressure from setback IMHO. Could be defective ammo or just re-chambered one to many times.
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Old October 5, 2012, 02:13 PM   #4
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I hope you're not using cheap FMJ as your defensive ammo, but since the bullet is set so far back, I'm guessing you do. Yes, the setback is due to you chambering/dechambering it too often.

Change ammo to a decent JHP (Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, Hornady Critical Duty) and create a special pile of ammo that you've chambered 15 times.

That amount of setback is EXTREME. I have never seen it that bad before. That'll amp up the pressure a lot. Not safe.
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Old October 5, 2012, 04:51 PM   #5
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Like others have said ....I've never seen a round show that much setback...that's extreme.

However, its also an indication that someting probably went wrong with that round ...on the final crimp station in their operation. I know the low end Federal ammo ...isn't great stuff..but I would have never suspected that would happen either.

I'd check the bullets - for any movement - by hand ...if you have any more of those boxes on hand. I suggest you change ammo as well. / are you sure, those are not someone's reloads...those cases don't look new !!
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:06 PM   #6
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He may be in one of those areas where hollow points are not allowed...

If so, see if the Federal Guard Dog expanding FMJ are allowed.

As was said... every time you load and unload the same round over and over, setback can happen.


Setback that extreme suggests to me a poor round crimp due to cheaper FMJ... or even a squib round that has no powder in the case and allowed to to be pushed back that far.

If it was a squib... it is most definitely a good thing you found it as you did.
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:50 PM   #7
Davey
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Hollow points are fine here. I just haven't had the time or money to experiment with different ammo types. These are just vanilla Federal FMJ rounds.

This is probably due to my habit of constantly checking that the gun is loaded. I've fired many, many of these factory rounds from my gun without a problem.

Thanks everyone.
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Old October 5, 2012, 07:06 PM   #8
marine6680
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Unless you pull the slide back enough to pull it out of the chamber past the case... I don't see that hurting it so much. You only need to press check by pulling it back a very little, just enough to see the case.


What kind of pistol do you have?

Most modern pistols are not really ammo sensitive. So experimenting will not really be needed too much.
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Old October 5, 2012, 09:32 PM   #9
drail
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Any experienced handloader can make ammo that will withstand repeated chamberings without bullet setback. Apparently the ammo factories have chosen not to bother with things like dimensional tolerances or quality control. In the last 5 years we are hearing constant reports of factory ammo that sets back dangerously after one chambering. It didn't used to be this way. I guess it's just cheaper to hire some lawyers than to fix the peoblem. If you want high quality ammo then you must learn to reload. Repeatedly rechambering the same round is not a good habit to get into but the bullets should not be so loose in the case that they'll set back after 2 or 3 trips up the feed ramp.
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Old October 5, 2012, 10:55 PM   #10
TunnelRat
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Quote:
I just haven't had the time or money to experiment with different ammo types.
This is going to come off as me being a dick, but if you have the money for a SIG P226 Tac-Ops, a $20 box of hollowpoints shouldn't be a stretch.
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Old October 6, 2012, 12:20 AM   #11
David White
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[QUOTE=flightline;5244094]It's not exactly comforting, but I doubt it would have damaged anything. There's a pretty generous safety factor built in; plenty for the marginal increase in pressure from setback IMHO. Could be defective ammo or just re-chambered one to many times.[/QUOT]

Wrong. Setback can cause dangerous over pressure which can (and has) led to catastrophic failures.
That round in your picture belongs in the trash, not your handgun.

Also, if this is an SD pistol for home as well... Why are you using Full Metal Jacketed rounds? You will have serious over penetration and you are liable for EVERY round that leaves your gun.
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Old October 6, 2012, 03:49 AM   #12
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I wish they would bring back the case cannelure that formed a shelf at the base of the bullets to prevent just this sort of thing from happening.

This can happen with higher priced 9mm ammo as well. I used to carry only Supervel Truncated cone ammo in the P-35 I carried many moons ago. I only found out recently that there had been some P-35 pistols damaged by Supervel ammo that had gotten the bullet shoved back into the case.
The Truncated Cone bullet is a lot like the original 9mm Parabelum bullet which was a solid nose FMJ. When they switched to the ogived round nose thats when they first started having feeding difficulty with the Luger if there was any wear to the mag catch or the slot for it in the magazine.
Broad hollow point nose cavities may encourage bullets becoming stuffed back in the case.
There have been a number of wrecked .40 S&W chambered pistols in recent years where this was belived to be the culprit.

In one case a security firm would use a reserve magazine soley for loading a single round in the chamber then put in a full magazine. Each time the pistol was turned in they unloaded it and used the same single round the next day, again loading the chamber from the reserved magazine. Some cartridges were chambered this way dozens of times, and finally one ended up with the loosened bullet jammed deep in the case, when fired the case ruptured.
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Old October 6, 2012, 04:02 AM   #13
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flightline, you may want to brush up on Boyle's Law:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/boyle.html

Since you use "flightline" for your screen name, I used NASA's website for the example link.

I'd guess setback such as depicted in the OP's photo might increase pressure by 50%. I definitely would not "doubt it would have damaged anything."

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it would have damaged someone, let alone something.
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Old October 6, 2012, 04:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
I wish they would bring back the case cannelure that formed a shelf at the base of the bullets to prevent just this sort of thing from happening.
Yeah - I agree..
Seems stupid (IMHO) to have done away with it in the first place.
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Old October 6, 2012, 05:46 AM   #15
thedudeabides
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COR-BON has a cannelure on their defense rounds to prevent this. Get a box.
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Old October 6, 2012, 07:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
I definitely would not "doubt it would have damaged anything."
Pressure would definitely spike with that much setback. Several things can happen, from case=head blowouts to an actual "kaboom" event.

Rechambering rounds is the leading cause of this.
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Old October 6, 2012, 08:50 AM   #17
Hal
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Quote:
COR-BON has a cannelure on their defense rounds to prevent this. Get a box.
Their website doesn't picture one on the DPX.
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Old October 6, 2012, 08:57 AM   #18
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You can check your chamber loaded status by looking at your extractor. It has a slight cant when it has a round engaged.
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Old October 6, 2012, 09:57 AM   #19
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who in the world would outlaw hollow points??????? its the safety slug.
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Old October 6, 2012, 10:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal
Quote:
I wish they would bring back the case cannelure that formed a shelf at the base of the bullets to prevent just this sort of thing from happening.
Yeah - I agree..
Seems stupid (IMHO) to have done away with it in the first place.
You can't bring back something that never was. Cannelures are not used to form a "shelf" anywhere on a bullet, and neither the 9mm Parabellum round or the .45 Colt Automatic Pistol round originally had a cannelure.

Bullet setback is the norm with semi-automatic rounds that get rechambered multiple times. They are taper crimped, leaving the case mouth square so it can seat on the shoulder at the front of the chamber. This is how semi-autos control headspacing. It's a different animal than the roll crimp used on revolver ammo.

This problem has been discussed for years on various forums. Serious setback should not occur with one chambering, but I have never seen any round -- commercial or handload -- that doesn't exhibit setback after five or ten successive chamberings.

The one in the photo is rather extreme, but I have one on my reloading bench that's as bad, or worse. It's also a 9mm, but it's a truncated cone lead bullet. It was in a box of loose rounds the owner of the range gave me awhile back. A customer gave them to him, and he can't remember which customer so we can't even ask what the load is. My plan is to disassemble them, weigh the bullets, and reload using my powder and a known-safe charge.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; October 6, 2012 at 10:40 AM. Reason: typos
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Old October 6, 2012, 10:54 AM   #21
chris in va
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I've only experienced that sort of setback with Federal HydraShok ammo. Federal cases are also known to be rather soft amongst the reloading crowd.

A 'press check' to verify a chambered round won't cause setback, but repeated chamberings certainly can.
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Old October 6, 2012, 11:10 AM   #22
TunnelRat
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Agreed. A press check, pulling back the slide far enough to visually verify that you can see the brass, indicating a loaded round, shouldn't cause setback.
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Old October 6, 2012, 12:29 PM   #23
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Before I chamber a defensive round, I put a tick mark on the case with a sharpie to track how many times that particular round has been chambered. After I've chambered a round 3 times, I take it out of circulation. I don't use cheap FMJ ammo for defense either. Bullet setback, especially to the extent shown in that photo, can be very dangerous. I had a problematic Springfield 1911 that would cause setback similar to that in the photo with cheap WWB ammo from only a single chambering.
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Old October 6, 2012, 12:33 PM   #24
Denezin
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DO NOT FIRE

That setback can cause extreme over pressuring causing your gun to KB. If you had a reload kit pull it out and re seat it. Other wise throw it away or dispose of it properly.
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Old October 6, 2012, 12:38 PM   #25
drail
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If you are one who repeatedly rechambers the same round then you are taking a real chance with setback. The ammo makers NEVER intended for users to ever do this (several have stated this on record) and they feel that they are not liable if you do and blow your gun. Find some way to not rechamber rounds. Doing so is playing with fire if you're going to use factory ammo. Chamber it once and shoot it or toss it. Don't "rotate it" back into the magazine or "save it" for range practice. The consequences are not worth the cost of one bad round shredding your hand up. It only takes one.
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