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Old October 7, 2012, 07:31 PM   #26
9mm
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I suppose thats the good thing about "gangster shooting sideways" no matter what your sights are, you can always shoot sideways, even if they are off.
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Old October 7, 2012, 09:19 PM   #27
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Is there any indication that gang members actually shoot in this manner, or is it all just hollywood movie stuff? I suppose surveillance cameras that capture robberies on film would be the only true indication, unless there are some gang members here who would like to share their real life experiences?
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Old October 7, 2012, 09:33 PM   #28
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It's a modified type of point shooting I suppose, but what's the point? Even the "expert" they quoted said it was less accurate than using sights. But if you're in a real hurry, simply focus on the front site. You won't build bad habits by switching techniques when you want to actually aim. In addition, I imagine some semi-autos might experience some feeding issues when fired sideways (most probably will be okay).
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Old October 7, 2012, 09:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Is there any indication that gang members actually shoot in this manner, or is it all just hollywood movie stuff? I suppose surveillance cameras that capture robberies on film would be the only true indication, unless there are some gang members here who would like to share their real life experiences
They tend to pose in all their pictures that way, so I assume so
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Old October 7, 2012, 09:43 PM   #30
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This is a thread about handguns, not shotguns.

There is a huge range between the hip and eye level.

As for whether gangstersshot like that or not, I spokewith a police officer some years ago who was involved in a gunfight where the shooter was during like that. Question is, did he see it on tv ?
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Old October 8, 2012, 08:19 AM   #31
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Being the RO of a small range with a well-behaved bunch of shooters, I had the opportunity to try many non-action styles of shooting.

I spent several sessions trying the gangsta hold on the 50' range. One can learn to hit accurately that way but with fixed sights you have to hold over and to one side to get the hits where you want them. That's what you'd expect from turning the gun 90 degrees from the way it was designed to work.

On the other hand, having had to go to ground on my side and shoot targets during a stage at an IPSC match, I know that for close range I can shoot from lying on my side with a 2 hand hold and use the sights just like normal and get A zone hits.
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Old October 8, 2012, 08:35 AM   #32
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The author of the article makes a rather big assumption. That is, he assumes that shooting in such a way means the shooter is using the flat of the slide as an aiming plane.

I am not sure one can really make that assumption. Sure, it MIGHT work well (at least vertically), but it's going to take a split second to line up that slide with the target.

Furthermore, the author assumes that people doing this actually care where the bullets go and are not just trying to "spray and pray." Given the rather common results of drive-by shootings where a bunch of rounds are expended to little effect on the intended target, I would think it's more the latter than any unintentionally genius shooting system.

Myself, I'll stick with the sights. It might be a touch slower, but as the old saw goes, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight."
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Old October 8, 2012, 08:51 AM   #33
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I dare someone to shoot my Raging Bull .454 gangsta style, I do believe they will live to regret it.
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Old October 8, 2012, 08:52 AM   #34
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trigger discipline failed.

Interesting to note (in addition to other points so far mentioned).

It's written by a publication in the UK.

In the photo of the gangsters, at least 2 have fingers on triggers. Can't tell about the guy holding the AK. Being in the UK they might not even be real guns.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:00 AM   #35
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Having had the opportunity to view security camera images on our local news channels the sights are ignored in holding the gun sideways. In fact, the perpetrator is not even looking at the gun but rather at the clerk, cash register, the display behind, or whatever holds his interest.

In many cases there is a Lexan partition which the crook is extending his hand over. In several cases, when the victim ducks down or moves aside, the gun is useless, as the gun hand cannot flex enough to bring the gun to bear. In several cases, this has proved fatal for the would-be robber.

Clearly these crimes are often not too well planned.

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Old October 8, 2012, 09:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
trigger discipline failed.
Interesting to note (in addition to other points so far mentioned).
It's written by a publication in the UK.
In the photo of the gangsters, at least 2 have fingers on triggers. Can't tell about the guy holding the AK. Being in the UK they might not even be real guns.
Post the picture, but remember, this is about handguns, don't mention the AK
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:11 AM   #37
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I started a similar thread on another forum several years ago.
The large majority consensus was that the 'gangsta' grip was a more natural hold than the popular verticle one.
Just hold your hand out in front of you, it will be sideways.
How well you can shoot that way is another matter altogether.
Maybe guns should be designed for the sideways hold. I dunno. Just tossing the idea out.
FWIW, I have never tried shooting with the sideways hold and have no plans to. Habit and conditioning bring mine verticle without thinking about it.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:14 AM   #38
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p.s don't look at the guy on the right.
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Old October 8, 2012, 09:19 AM   #39
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Unfortunately, this is how so many innocent bystanders get shot while the intended target does not. IMO, there is no place for this "technique" in serious situations. Thugs and gangstas don't care where their bullets go, while I will have to account for every bullet that leaves my gun so I'm going to try to make sure I hit at what I am aiming.
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Old October 8, 2012, 10:58 AM   #40
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I read that the Chinese night infiltrators used it with full auto Mauser C96 handguns then switched to a large 2 handed sword against the Japanese.

Of course, that might have been gunwriter fantasy too.
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Old October 8, 2012, 06:52 PM   #41
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Have some ergonomic expert get two groups of untrained shooters and teach them the various methods and then evaulate them.

Otherwise, it's all talky, talky.
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Old October 8, 2012, 07:55 PM   #42
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I'll believe in it when the next generation ambidextrous handguns come out with sights on the top and both sides so anybody can be a natural.
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Old October 8, 2012, 10:24 PM   #43
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On the show Cops I saw a policeman come up to the front windshield of a car and pointed his handgun straight down at the suspect, he had to hold the gun high requiring him to hold it sideways.

I can also see if somebody was shooting somebody up close, holding the gun high, pointed down on somebody kind of makes sense in a crowded room. Shooting somebody from up high the bullet will shoot down instead of across the room. Does that make sense?

Just picture it. Grab your Glock and try it. LOL
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Old October 9, 2012, 10:47 AM   #44
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I'm left handed. My semiautomatics would probably end up choking on their own brass if I tried that. I guess I don't understand the article. You can get a "flash sight picture" just as easily with the gun upright. I do it at the range all the time for rapid fire. At defensive ranges I end up with a nice fist sized group center of mass.
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Old October 9, 2012, 11:01 AM   #45
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Don't be too quick to denigrate point shooting... if, (a BIG if in this topic), the shooter gets very familiar with his handgun, point shooting can be stunningly accurate.
Bill Jordan (RIP) used to do shooting exhibitions using a S&W mod 19, loaded with wax bullets. He could draw and point shoot from the hip and hit ASPIRIN tablets, every time.
Once you work out in your mind the relationship of YOUR gun in YOUR hand, instinctive shooting becomes much more accurate. It was explained to me that it's similar to throwing a rock... you don't "aim" it, you simply let it fly, knowing instinctively when to release the rock to have the trajectory you want.
I've seen videos of instinctive bow shooters put 5 arrows into a plastic bottle cap at 20-30 feet. They KNOW their weapon.
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Old October 9, 2012, 11:04 AM   #46
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Quote:
Don't be too quick to denigrate point shooting
I'm not sure anybody here is. The author of the article is making a HUGE assumption that this sideways method is done using the side of the slide as a sighting plane and some others are thinking it could be a method of point shooting.

IMO, when we're dealing with the usual garden variety thugs, these things are about as likely as that fellow on the corner actually not selling drugs but small amounts of baking supplies (flour, oregano) as a matter of convenience for those who ALMOST have enough to finish that batch of cookies or loaf of bread but don't want to go all the way to the store to buy a larger supply.
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Old October 9, 2012, 11:05 AM   #47
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It was explained to me that it's similar to throwing a rock... you don't "aim" it, you simply let it fly, knowing instinctively when to release the rock to have the trajectory you want.
Or a baseball?
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Old October 9, 2012, 11:57 AM   #48
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I know a whole lot of people who don't know when to let go, so how can it be an "instinct"? Ducking when someone throws a punch is instinct. Throwing a ball is learned.
Also, I hear a lot about some guns that point "instinctively", as if their design makes hitting with them as easy as pointing your finger. The problem with that, is the two guns that I hear most often are great instinctive pointers - the Luger and the Peacemaker - are two of the WORST pointing guns I have ever handled.
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Old October 9, 2012, 01:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I know a whole lot of people who don't know when to let go, so how can it be an "instinct"? Ducking when someone throws a punch is instinct. Throwing a ball is learned.
Also, I hear a lot about some guns that point "instinctively", as if their design makes hitting with them as easy as pointing your finger. The problem with that, is the two guns that I hear most often are great instinctive pointers - the Luger and the Peacemaker - are two of the WORST pointing guns I have ever handled.
My son, who is not quite 2 years old, has balls (and toys) for several months now. I haven't really "taught" him yet how to do it. I think some of it may be learned from watching, but part of throwing a ball is instinctive (IMHO)
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Old October 19, 2012, 12:17 PM   #50
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Quote:
When I did a defensive pistol course we were taught to slightly rotate the pistol when shooting with one hand. It was explained that it was a more natural position for the hand / wrist. Thats not to say it was completly sideways but I could see where there could be benefits to it.

I too learned this, but only when shooting weak hand only
Gripping the the pistol canted was a suggested technique by my instructors when shooting with only the "weak" hand. This optional method actually did seem to help me a little.
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