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Old October 4, 2012, 06:39 PM   #26
Metal god
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OK just did a little quick research and found these loads .

These are the hottest heaviest loads I could find of factory ammo .

Buffalo Bore makes a 9mm +P+ JHP 147gr velocity 1,175fps

Grizzly makes a 45acp Xtreme HP 175gr velocity 1,200fps

I do not know how to do the math on each of these bullets but my bet is the 45 will have more ftlbs of force and create a bigger temporary and permanent cavity then the 9mm .

RBCD makes a factory 45acp load that is 115gr velocity 1,650fps I wonder what the math is on that one
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:41 PM   #27
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... Nice post about energy but it completely neglects momentum which is more important in handgun bullets than energy, IMO, especially when it comes to penetration. Mass is more important than velocity when it comes to momentum. ...
Check carefully. I did not go into detail, but I did in fact reference momentum as the factor which allows a slower projectile to do equivalent work.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:45 PM   #28
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One also must remember that transferable energy plays a small role. Now a .22 moving in a fmj at 10 zillion fps wont really transfer alot of energy and pretty much zip right through. But this is a difference of .101 or 101 thousandths of an inch. so its not a big difference but it is a difference. Slower and bigger is better on tissue not armor or penetrating plate steel usually.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:50 PM   #29
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... I didn't insult you. I simply stated that fourth graders are taught this very equation and that as such, it is common knowledge. You can dispute the equation all that you wish, but it still stands that A = пr² ...
You're confusing the formula for the area of a circle (A = пr²) - which was never in doubt or even a question, BTW ... with cross-sectional-area:
, but I'm through quibbling.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:56 PM   #30
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... Slower and bigger is better on tissue not armor or penetrating plate steel usually. ...
Not really when you are talking about two projectiles which simply poke holes. At least it's unfair to make that statement without defining the range of effects by which you determine something "better".
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Old October 4, 2012, 07:08 PM   #31
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I have not made it through the forth grade yet Are any of you rocket scientist going to do the math for me on the two bullets I gave examples of

Im having a hard of enough time pronouncing what you all are writing litle lone understanding it
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Old October 4, 2012, 07:20 PM   #32
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Buffalo Bore makes a 9mm +P+ JHP 147gr velocity 1,175fps:
~ 450ftlbs

Grizzly makes a 45acp Xtreme HP 175gr velocity 1,200fps:
~ 560ftlbs

They'll both do fine, maybe too fine, lol.
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Old October 4, 2012, 07:52 PM   #33
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Steel and flesh have different characteristics when it comes to being penetrated by a projectile. Steel rips or shaves and flesh is crush and ripped apart creating the wound. Plus i rather doubt flesh would hold off a rpg hit like a tank would. different ammo for different applications.
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Old October 4, 2012, 08:16 PM   #34
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thanks Zombie
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Old October 4, 2012, 10:25 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics:
You're confusing the formula for the area of a circle (A = пr²) - which was never in doubt or even a question, BTW ... with cross-sectional-area: ....but I'm through quibbling.
Sure, toss in the towel when you are called on something that you cannot "walk back".

The cross-sectional area of an expanded round is best described as being that of a circle.

Of course, we could go one step further and compute it as the surface area of a partial, oblate sphere, but the difference is trivial in practice and not worth the trouble. You can try to walk it back all that you want, but the fact remains that you said-

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics:
Brief primer: diameter is a meaningless measurement for the problem, cross-sectional area is more to the point.


-and cross-sectional area (the dimension you've chosen to hang your hat on) is determined by the diameter (or the radius) of the expansion face (which is typically circular (or slightly stellate- that is, shaped like a star) and has an area that is best described by A = пr². That surface area, BTW, has a profound effect upon the way a bullet decelerates within a medium (through viscous and inertial drag forces) so it is very important in the consideration of the problem at hand- terminal ballistics.
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Old October 5, 2012, 12:58 AM   #36
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... Sure, toss in the towel when you are called on something that you cannot "walk back". ...
I think you have a very different notion about what just happened than what actually just happened. Let's just leave it at that.
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Old October 5, 2012, 03:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by zombietactics:
I think you have a very different notion about what just happened than what actually just happened. Let's just leave it at that.
Of course. You are certainly welcome to "spin" it however you would like- even if your words remain as quoted in post #16 (and #3).

Enjoy.
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Old October 5, 2012, 04:35 PM   #38
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You quoted things out of context as though they represented the central point I was trying to make. News flash: they didn't.

You seized upon a minor - almost parenthetical - point ...a couple of sentences in a very long post ... seized upon it and pretended it was THE THING I was posting about. How can anyone do that with a straight face?

I mentioned - almost in passing - that diameter (should have qualified it with "alone", so sue me, sheesh) is pretty meaningless. Whether it's part of calculating some other factor or not is quite besides the point. I'll edit the post to be clearer ... consider that some "victory" if you must. It's as though I stated that wheel diameter doesn't tell you much about the top speed of a car, and you've rushed in to "save the day" by noting that it might have something to do with the issue. Not the same point, not the same argument.

What IS your point, anyway? Are you among the cultists who think that a 2.49mm difference in diameter takes something from "meh" to "awesome one-shot manstopper of doom!" ?

I'm not "walking back" anything, simply noting that you are just having a conversation with yourself anyway, so my participation is unnecessary. Further, despite your weak protestations to the contrary, your posts have taken on the tone of insulting personal attacks. I won't play that game. I'll just note that bluster and bullying aren't good arguments.

Have fun in your echo chamber. Have the last word if you like, and tell the mirror how you "sure gave it to that guy". I know it's what you live for.

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Old October 5, 2012, 05:14 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics:
You quoted things out of context as though they represented the central point I was trying to make. News flash: they didn't.

You seized upon a minor - almost parenthetical - point ...a couple of sentences in a very long post ... seized upon it and pretended it was THE THING I was posting about. How can anyone do that with a straight face?

I mentioned - almost in passing - that diameter (should have qualified it with "alone", so sue me, sheesh) is pretty meaningless. Whether it's part of calculating some other factor or not is quite besides the point. I'll edit the post to be clearer ... consider that some "victory" if you must. It's as though I stated that wheel diameter doesn't tell you much about the top speed of a car, and you've rushed in to "save the day" by noting that it might have something to do with the issue. Not the same point, not the same argument.

What IS your point, anyway? Are you among the cultists who think that a 2.49mm difference in diameter takes something from "meh" to "awesome one-shot manstopper of doom!" ?
If your point was so clear, then there'd be no need for you to edit what you said. "Walk it back", edit it to your heart's content- it makes no difference to me. My posts will reflect the original content of our discussion in any event.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics:
I'm not "walking back" anything, simply noting that you are just having a conversation with yourself anyway, so my participation is unnecessary.
-and yet here you are.

Again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics:
Have fun in your echo chamber. Have the last word if you like, and tell the mirror how you "sure gave it to that guy". I know it's what you live for.
Such "snark" just tells me (and everyone else reading this thread) that you've permitted your anger to get the better part of you.
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:17 PM   #40
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481, let it go man.

SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / Colt 70 Series / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15

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Old October 5, 2012, 05:18 PM   #41
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I think this thread will be getting closed soon .
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Constantine:
481, let it go man.
I will. Good advice. Thanks.

Out.
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:21 PM   #43
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Such "snark" just tells me (and everyone else reading this thread) that you've permitted your anger to get the better part of you.
I'm sorry, you really CAN have the last word after this. I just had to note that not only have you taken it upon yourself to tell everyone what you think, and tell everyone what I think, but now you've arrogated to yourself the right to speak on behalf of "everyone else", and tell them what they'll think.

Truly you are the world's most interesting man. Stay thirsty, my friend.

(I now return you to your fantasy life)
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:34 PM   #44
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-_____-

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Old October 5, 2012, 06:00 PM   #45
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Don't know if its important, or not, but I think a .45 is more likey to change cover into concealment than a 9.

salty
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Old October 5, 2012, 08:34 PM   #46
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The .45 extra power does not outweigh the extra capacity the 9mm has to offer. That being said, I carry .40 and so do most LEA.
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Old October 5, 2012, 10:13 PM   #47
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I think I read somewhere...I'm just going off the top of my head now...that they tested several brands of hollow points in .45 and 9mm. They both opened up to about the same .71-.80
Really? Who is "they"? I have never seen anything like that. I have seen tests where a well-designed JHP, driven to the correct speed for proper opening, can (under perfect conditions) open to approximately double its original size. That still leaves a pretty big difference between .710 and .904. As they say, a 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink.
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Big bullets moving slow was what the world HAD back in the blackpowder era. We were supposed to have moved forward since then.
Yes, we often delude ourselves into believing that we have. The .45-70 and the .45LC were both black powder rounds, and were designed to (or be capable of) shooting through a horse or deer lengthwise, with predicatble and consistent results....no expansion required. Both are still extremely effective today.
On the other hand, we went from .30 cal bullets (Garand/M14) to .22 cal bullets (M16) in our military rifles. We went from .45 cal 1911s to 9mm M9s. Whether those were "moves forward" have been the subject of debate for, oh, about 40 years in the case of the M16, and a bit over 25 in the case of the M9. They are still being debated, and a number of other options are being tested for the M16...and a number of new 1911s are being sent to our Marines.
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When bullets have terminal striking velocity above 1300fps they begin to do damage far out of proportion to their caliber and mass.
Everything I have read sets that threshold much higher, and most place it between 2000-2500 FPS. In simple terms, most any bullet fired at rifle velocities can generate "Hydrostatic shock". Pistols, no matter what pistol, cannot do that..so pistol rounds depend on momentum to get the job done.
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RBCD makes a factory 45acp load that is 115gr velocity 1,650fps I wonder what the math is on that one.
This is a perfect example of why "energy" is a poor predictor of effectiveness. RCBD builds a bullet of a light metal jacket filled with an epoxy resin. It weighs next to nothing so it screams out of the barrel. If you are using the energy equation, it generates a theoretical 13 Katrillion ft-lbs. But shoot it into something, and it fragments with very little penetration. It is the ultimate extension of the Glaser/Magsafe concept. Great on paper...in more ways than one. If you can show me even one respected trainer, LEA/military/ etc. who recommends and uses Glaser/MagSafe/RCBD ammo...I will read those words and take them under advisement.
Quote:
A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44
I always love this argument...it is always presented as if those were the only two possible outcomes.
If you can't hit what you aim at with a .44, perhaps you should carry a .22...or, maybe you could practice with the .44.
Then the likely outcomes change dramatically. I will not pursue this line of thought...it should be self-evident.
Quote:
The .45 extra power does not outweigh the extra capacity the 9mm has to offer.
Once again, this is an opinion, presented as a fact. Calling your dog a duck does not allow the dog to fly, and if you invite some friends to dinner and serve them your "duck" they are unlikely to be impressed...and they probably won't show up the next time they are invited, either.
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Old October 5, 2012, 10:36 PM   #48
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Damn Orion , why don't you tell us how you really feel .
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Old October 5, 2012, 10:45 PM   #49
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Orion, great post, and spot on!
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Old October 5, 2012, 11:11 PM   #50
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Thank you, gentlemen.

And thank you for being gentlemen. That is one of the best things about this forum.
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