The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 7, 2012, 10:15 PM   #1
kot
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Posts: 13
True Lies

People who watched this movie would remember the scene where Schwarzenegger raises his firearm and shoots the bad guy who is holding his wife, right in the head (after they escaped the "torture room"), aiming in a split second. So I tried the same thing on the range, using the paper target instead of a bad guy. The result? I didn't hit the target. Tried this many times, some edge hits, but nothing towards the center.
I only managed to hit the target reliably when I made an effort to aim, but it takes about 2-3 seconds to line up the sights.
Any suggestions on how to improve when there is a need to aim quickly, for example when drawing from a holster?
kot is offline  
Old September 7, 2012, 10:52 PM   #2
rocky.223
Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2011
Location: St. Louis Area
Posts: 69
stuntmen, high speed camera's, and cg effects come to mind.
__________________
rocky
rocky.223 is offline  
Old September 7, 2012, 10:57 PM   #3
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 7,088
Practice.
__________________
Bill DeShivs
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old September 7, 2012, 11:05 PM   #4
MTSCMike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: Middle TN
Posts: 164
The simple answer is training and practice. Shooting in IDPA or USPSA competition can help too.

I just completed my IDPA classifier last month to complete my 5-Gun Sharpshooter Certification. As a Sharpshooter I'm not super fast and more like just a bit quicker than the average competitor. The first 4 strings of fire are at 3 targets 7 yards away, 3 yards apart and require head shots. Here are my times:

At the audible signal, draw and fire two shots to the body and one to the head on each of the three targets.

Target one: 3.81 seconds
Target two: 3.35 seconds
Target three: 3.46 seconds

At the audible signal, draw and fire two shots to each head on all three targets

total for all 6 shots: 6.69 seconds

These times are with a 45 ACP revolver firing double action! I can shave a good bit off these times with a semi auto. It takes me about 1.2 to 1.5 seconds to draw, aim and fire the first shot. Sometimes I can get really smooth and lucky and beat 1 second but not on a regular basis. These times also include the time it takes to transition from one aiming point to another and/or transitioning between targets. Starting with the gun in hand and at the "low ready" position I should be able to perform one head shot in less than a second every time at this distance.

I shoot at least 3 times a month and have fired many thousands of rounds in practice and competition since starting IDPA shooting in 1997. Before that I did a lot of static target shooting and hunting with a handgun. It just takes practice and training.
__________________
IDPA Member A00640
Founding Charter Member - Middle Tennessee Shooter's Club

Last edited by MTSCMike; September 7, 2012 at 11:14 PM.
MTSCMike is offline  
Old September 7, 2012, 11:07 PM   #5
Sgt.Fathead
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,637
I knew a guy back in the late eighties in The Corps who was a remarkable pistol shot and could hit 2" dots at 25 yards with his personal Gold Cup 1911 all day long. He would often riddle the face of an aggressor on a hostage-in-front-target.

His secret? Natural ability, sure, but as bill stated, hours and hours of practice with consistency in his fundamentals.
Sgt.Fathead is offline  
Old September 7, 2012, 11:13 PM   #6
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by kot
...Any suggestions on how to improve when there is a need to aim quickly, for example when drawing from a holster?
Training and practice.

But of course, what you saw was a movie and not true. However, with training and practice, one can learn to very quickly pick-up the front sight and get good hits. At Gunsite, par for what are called the "school drills" is, from the holster, (1) one shot in the cranial vault at 3 yards in 1.5 seconds; and (2) two shots in the center of mass at 7 yards in 1.5 seconds.

It starts good trigger control, what is called the compressed surprise break. The trigger press needs to be smooth, but quick, with only the trigger finger moving, but without trying to make the gun fire at a particular instant. And that takes a fair amount of slow, smooth, deliberate practice to develop. But too often when folks are trying to shoot quickly trigger control goes out the window, and they jerk the trigger.

Also the flash sight picture helps. Here's how Greg Morrison describes the flash sight picture (Morrison, Gregory, The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991, pp 87 - 88, emphasis added):
Quote:
...The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistolfighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.

...Using the flash sight-picture programs the reflex of aligning the weapon’s sights with the target instantly....There is good reason for sights: one needs them to align the barrel with the target reliably....
.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 7, 2012, 11:21 PM   #7
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,441
TV is like the internet, anything is possible.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 08:22 AM   #8
kot
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2010
Posts: 13
Thank you folks, that was very helpful.
kot is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 03:11 PM   #9
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
They can always do it faster in the movies.

There are two basic ways of doing this. One is to draw and bring the gun up to the target, as you would from a low ready. The other is to bring the gun up out of the holster, about to where you would go into a retention position, then acquire the sight as you push the gun out toward the target- bring the front sight on target, then line up the sights as you push out. I find the latter works a little quicker for me, but everyone's different.

Whatever you do, do it smoothly. If you just bring the gun up/out fast, with a sudden stop at the end, that bounce at the end will make it more difficult to line up the sights.

When you practice, do it as slowly as you have to, and still get the hits. Get hits, THEN speed up. Take your time, but do it fast.

And you don't have to use up ammo, you can dry fire at home, too.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 03:24 PM   #10
theinvisibleheart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2005
Location: virtual internet world with a Daisy Red Ryder, LOL
Posts: 682
natural POA

you have to get your natural POA(point of aim) instinctive so that w/o thinking and making a conscious effort, you bring your gun into LOS(Line Of Sight) automatically wherever you are looking at.

It's stance dependent though.
theinvisibleheart is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 04:52 PM   #11
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,559
Kot, . . . I'll get flamed for this, . . . but if you are like the rest of us, . . . not having a deep pocketed shooting sponsor, . . . you might get yourself a BB gun or an air soft gun, . . . one that approximates your handgun.

A lot of the muscle memory works as well with a BB gun as it does with a fully tricked out Gold Cup.

Muscle memory ONLY comes from practice, . . . practice, . . . and did I mention, . . . practice?

As an example, . . . tying your shoes. You can equally well tie your running shoes, Sunday go to meeting shoes, dance shoes, and clod hoppers, . . . each needing a bit of refinement, . . . but the basics of muscle memory allow you to do that without thinking.

Handgun practice will also do that for you, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 05:15 PM   #12
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
natural POA
I call it my index but same thing. Practice till you can bring up your gun to the exact same place everytime and your mind will burn a neuropath so you will do int without thinking. Then just speed it up and in time you draw and hit a target in just one motion.

BTW, just got back from practice and this other guy who had a Russian 7.62 Nagant rifle had his .45 1911, made in the Philippines I think, not bad gun either. I had my Centennial .357 practice gun on and reloads. He was shocked one could draw and put three head shots at 5 yards one handed in about 3 seconds total, including draw, DAO (and actually it surprised me to but I didn't let on!)

But it was all because even if I can't see the sights, I bring the gun up to the same place AS IF I COULD SEE THE SIGHTS. Jeff Cooper wrote that once and I'll never forget it!

My index, or POA, is burned into me that well.

Savvy riflemen talk about getting a good cheakweld.... Same thing for them!

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 10:06 PM   #13
theinvisibleheart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2005
Location: virtual internet world with a Daisy Red Ryder, LOL
Posts: 682
1. BB/airsoft is a good training tool

2. ditto for laser targeting system

3. natural aim/POA/indexing/etc. depend on other factors to some degree, e.g., stance/weapon dependent.

If you switch from one handgun to another with different grip angle, you may shoot high or low compared to the gun that you're familiar with.

Also applies to long gun if angle/ergonomics of the weapon is such that it's different from the primary weapon that you are used to.

Also, if your stance/body orientation changes dramatically from how you practice.

E.g., if you are squatting or lying on your body sideways while you always practice standing straight up.


FWIW, ingraining the habit with one gun/one orientation is not that hard.

Just remember to practice S L O W and also, choose the most efficient muscle movement until your muscle memory is firmly ingrained/established.

Last edited by theinvisibleheart; September 8, 2012 at 10:18 PM.
theinvisibleheart is offline  
Old September 8, 2012, 10:09 PM   #14
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,335
It can be done, but it takes a lot of repetitions to develop the muscle memory that insures that the sights come up on target already lined up. Even then, it's going to work best with the gun you're most familiar with.

You'll also need to have very good trigger control to be able to snap the shot quickly without yanking the sights off target.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 06:42 PM   #15
Joe_Pike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2010
Posts: 1,027
I'm sorry, the only scene I can seem to remember from that movie is the dancing scene.

And, since air soft was mentioned as a good low cost training tool I would like to ask a quick question. How much money does a guy have to spend to get an air soft gun (1911 for instance) that accurately resembles the the real thing in use and recoil?
__________________
Stay Groovy
Joe_Pike is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 07:35 PM   #16
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Pike
...since air soft was mentioned as a good low cost training tool I would like to ask a quick question. How much money does a guy have to spend to get an air soft gun (1911 for instance) that accurately resembles the the real thing in use and recoil?
No airsoft pistol will replicate the recoil of a real gun. But quality airsoft pistols operating with green gas (propane) are credible and useful training tools. They generally cost between $150 and $250. We use them in our NRA Basic Handgun classes (before our live fire exercises), and they really help the students start to get the hang of trigger control, sight alignment and trigger reset.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 10, 2012, 07:54 PM   #17
Venom1956
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 2,996
Quote:
(1911 for instance) that accurately resembles the the real thing in use and recoil?
__________________
You'll never get on that can simulate the recoil. most 'all metal' 1911s are pretty accurate from what a friend who plays tells me.
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that.
I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph.
Venom1956 is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 11:35 AM   #18
anothernewb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2012
Location: West Central MN
Posts: 114
didn't the military use bb guns without sights to facilitate training in the past?
I seem to remember something about that they had soldiers learn to aim and fire by instinct. Think it was called fast kill or quick kill or something like that.

I think they used to throw progressively smaller objects into the air and as the shooter got better. starting with a trash can lid and ending up with quarters or something ridiculously small like that.
anothernewb is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 12:15 PM   #19
theinvisibleheart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2005
Location: virtual internet world with a Daisy Red Ryder, LOL
Posts: 682
air gun/airsoft/bb: you use it build up sight alignment/sight picture, trigger control, and follow thru.

Ditto for using laser system/MILES/etc.

Recoil: you can learn that via actual shooting. Recoil from compressed air gun and Simunition F/X is different from that of live firearm. Also, most military is moving away from heavy recoil caliber in pistol and rifle(not prone/mounted type).

Military/air gun: you must be talking about Quick Kill(QK)/Lucky McDaniel system using Daisy BB gun. Military eventually moved away from it to pop up/aimed shooting.

In Quick Kill, the trick was to hold the bore of the long gun below eye level, usually at shoulder height, but parallel to line of sight. You can apply the same principle to hip shooting.

The problem was that it tended to be position/weapon specific.
theinvisibleheart is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 12:35 PM   #20
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,075
Dang you Taj,,,

Another coffee on the monitor moment.

Quote:
. . . but if you are like the rest of us, . . . not having a deep pocketed shooting sponsor, . . . you might get yourself a BB gun or an air soft gun, . . . one that approximates your handgun.
Isn't that why .22 handguns were invented?

Get a .22 handgun that is a match or a close copy of your main gun,,,
I often carry a S&W Model 36 chambered in .38 Special,,,
My understudy to that is a S&W Model 34 in .22 LR.

50 rounds of .22 LR then 5-10 rounds of .38 Special,,,
Lather - Rinse - Repeat as often as you can.

Practice is the only way to perfect doing something.

Aarond

.
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 04:14 PM   #21
Joe_Pike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2010
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
No airsoft pistol will replicate the recoil of a real gun.
Well, I knew that I didn't phrase that just right. I know that you can't duplicate recoil with an airsoft. I guess I was asking about a level of airsoft with the most recoil for that platform.

Quote:
Get a .22 handgun that is a match or a close copy of your main gun,,,
I often carry a S&W Model 36 chambered in .38 Special,,,
My understudy to that is a S&W Model 34 in .22 LR.
I'm guessing my neighbors would complain and that's not taking into account the damage it would do to my walls.
__________________
Stay Groovy
Joe_Pike is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 04:34 PM   #22
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
It was a movie, not real, put down the remote......
markj is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 05:13 PM   #23
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,884
Yet another nod towards the Airsoft...

While it has already been said a bunch of times, practice makes perfect. More accurately, perfect practice makes perfect. Practice developes the muscle memory which then becomes second nature. Airsoft is cheap and safe way to practice. I used to practice on a 6"x6" sticky target from across the room. I started from low ready and brought the gun up to the target quickly. Make sure the airsoft you get is a close replica to your gun so the grip angle will be similar. While the weight, trigger pull, and recoil will obviously be different, the main thing is getting lead on target QUICKLY!!!

I would not be taking wild shots at a hostage if they were holding a loved one. Now if I in the middle of a divorce...
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 06:42 PM   #24
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,985
I think I read somewhere that some SEALs and other "real operator" types can shoot up to 50,000 rounds per year...and that is after they have acquired the skill. It may take that much practice to maintain it.

When you think about it, that is "only" 1000 rounds per week. Either 200 rounds per day for five days a week, or one day and 1000 rounds...not hard to imagine (as long as someone else is paying for the ammo).

And even so, I'm not sure that the first hole in Osama was right between the eyes. So even the guys who should be capable of that "movie-type" shot did not necessarily get it right...I guess that's why they practice double taps...and it sounds as if two guys may have fired at the same time(?)

To actually make a shot like that is pure luck or total BS.

Bottom line...Hollywood is total BS, and hypocritical BS at that. They donate large sums of money to anti-2A candidates, but make money hand-over-fist making ultra-violent movies.

I cut Hollywood out of my habit pattern a long time ago...for a number of reasons. And when I say that, I mean it in every way. I don't watch movies on TV, not on cable, not on NetFlix, not on HuLu, nothing. Last movie I saw was Forrest Gump.

I will likely go to see Dinesh D'Souza's "2016--Obama's America"...but that is not Hollywood BS.

Sorry for the drift into "nobody asked me" land...
orionengnr is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 07:02 PM   #25
Jammer Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 827
All I remember is the dance.

Airsofts are not weapons and are not guns. The NRA has spent a great deal of money keeping it that way.
__________________
"Huh?" --Jammer Six, 1998
Jammer Six is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13454 seconds with 9 queries