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Old October 8, 2012, 07:48 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James K
...But nonsense like "... if you can't clear a jam, or reload while keeping your eyes on target, then you need to practice. This goes for semis and wheelguns" makes me cringe. That may (or may not) be good advice in combat; it is garbage on a range or in recreational shooting...
But actually the focus of this sub-forum is not recreational shooting. It's self defense and violent encounters.

And if one practices properly, one can manage that sort of thing safely, although diagnosing and clearing a double feed will require looking at the gun. But a "tap-rack" or a speed reload can be safely executed without looking at the gun.
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Old October 8, 2012, 07:59 PM   #27
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I need to improve my skills. I'm slack in that department.
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Old October 10, 2012, 08:52 PM   #28
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and he'll be charging from 6-10 ft, not 20 ft.

he can literally dive upon you in 1/2 second, if he tries. So basically, if your gun chokes, you will end up wrassling with him for control of your gun, even if he doesn't stab you or gouge out your eyes.
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Old October 10, 2012, 09:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
... diagnosing and clearing a double feed will require looking at the gun ...
Not really, but I'm quibbling. You probably WILL look at the gun if you get a double-feed in a fight.

It's my opinion that most malfunctions are better handled with a "New York Reload" wherever possible.
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Old October 10, 2012, 11:26 PM   #30
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If you are 20 feet away from a knife wielding psycho, and your gun is holstered, you're gonna come out of this second best. The knife wielder will close & cut you before you can draw & fire every time.
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Old October 11, 2012, 05:30 AM   #31
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The loading process for a 1911 is pretty ingrained for me...enough so that I really have to be careful when running malfunction drills. A couple times I started a malfunction drill with one in the chamber.

Quote:
If you are 20 feet away from a knife wielding psycho, and your gun is holstered, you're gonna come out of this second best. The knife wielder will close & cut you before you can draw & fire every time.
The "21 foot rule," based on the Tueller Drill is an average. Some people can win that race.
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Old October 11, 2012, 12:12 PM   #32
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If you are 20 feet away from a knife wielding psycho, and your gun is holstered, you're gonna come out of this second best. The knife wielder will close & cut you before you can draw & fire every time.
Only if he is lucky, everytime. I have seen a lot of not fatal defense wounds. A gun or a knife is only part of the equation. I am not going to stand there like a 1950's western hero waiting.
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Old October 11, 2012, 02:36 PM   #33
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There are training methods that allow you to move and redirect the Tueller scenario attacker to give you time to draw and fire.
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Old October 11, 2012, 02:55 PM   #34
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If you stay in one place and try to draw, the Tueller drill goes very badly for you.

Odds are much better if you move. Any movement beats deer in headlights mode.

Movement behind cover or obstacles works better, though. Or movement timed properly, when it's hard for the attacker to turn because of a committed attack - but that takes more training. (Not saying that's bad, just that for people who don't train much, timing is not easy.)
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Old October 11, 2012, 02:58 PM   #35
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James K, what Frank Ettin said.

Also, manipulation drills should not be done with guns and live ammo, at public ranges (or private ranges with others in vicinity).

This is why they make snap caps, and workshops, basements, garages, or possibly living rooms. (Living rooms are iffy, depending on presence and attitudes of family members.)

This is also why it's nice to have access to remote, outdoor ranges, in case one wants to try to train with live ammo in a more forgiving environment. That's more advanced, though. Snap caps are the way to go, initially.
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Old October 24, 2012, 03:59 AM   #36
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I like this post . I think its a neglected and underthought aspect for fundamentals for serious owners of semi auto pistols. For them to know how the specific functions and mechanics of their pistol or shotgun, rifle, etc apply and come to play at a so much equal level as simply shooting your gun straight. You can't shoot the gun and expect 100% function if your brain and hand are not cognizant that its cocked and ready to make a difference between your last seconds of life. And you don't know if your pump shotgun is ready if its not racked fully rearward and forward safety off etc. I would suggest the emphesis on carrying a pistol chambered for ease of rapid deployment. Indoor genaral rehersal of gun presentation including extra thought on correct hand placement for your gun is a must.
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Old October 24, 2012, 02:16 PM   #37
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Is it second nature? no
Am I half decent? almost
Do I need more practice? yes
Do I practice this? yes
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Old October 24, 2012, 05:10 PM   #38
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I sometimes cringe when someone swears they've never had a malfunction with whatever wonder-thunder they're using. I hope they don't experience the first one when a couple of bath-salts cannibals come charging
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Old October 24, 2012, 05:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donato
I just don't have the time nor the resources to do all this training.
It does not have to take a lot of time, and it need not cost more than you're willing to spend. It will take a decision that it's worthwhile to learn, and it will take enough willpower to follow through on that decision.

Step one: Financial investment in appropriate gear. That's a reliable carry gun, solid holster, good belt, and a steady supply of decent ammunition for live practice. Does not have to be a large supply, does have to be a steady one. Add a weighted dummy magazine (from Ring's Blue Guns) plus another $10 or so for a Training Barrel (from Blade Tech or TrainSafe) and you're good to go. For a revolver, add enough snap caps to fill two or three speedloaders.

Step two: Set up an appropriate dry fire area in your home. That's an area that can't be seen by the neighbors (draw the curtain) and that has a safe backstop -- one that would definitely stop a bullet of the most powerful type that would fit inside your firearm. Examples include: brick fireplace, solid basement wall, large cardboard box solidly filled with phone books or folded newspapers, 5-gallon bucket full of sand. Follow safe dry fire rules for ALL practice you do inside your home.

Step three: Learn how to do one, small skill. Not something big, something small. Something like, "Bring the gun up to eye level and press the trigger one time, smoothly." Or like, "Getting the gun smoothly out of the holster, without allowing the muzzle to cross my non-dominant hand." Ideally, of course, you would learn a technique taught directly from a professional trainer who can watch what you are doing and give you immediate feedback about how you're doing it. (And truthfully, if you can make this investment up front, it will save you untold hours of time and wasted ammunition compared to trying to reinvent the wheel by yourself.) But if you cannot swing that up-front investment to save time and money down the road, look for video instruction from the same level of professional trainer, which you can buy 'most anywhere these days, or find online for free. AVOID nameless "instant experts" on YouTube -- not because there aren't some good ones out there, but because without more background of your own, you almost certainly don't have enough time to wade through the crap and find the good stuff, and you don't yet have the expertise to accurately evaluate its worth anyway.

Step four: Practice that one skill. Five or ten minutes a day for a few weeks will have you doing well in no time -- provided you practice mindfully, with your brain engaged. Practice doing that skill smoothly and as perfectly as you can manage. Don't speed up prematurely; learn to do it right, every single time, until you don't have to think it through as you move... then gradually add speed, bit by bit. Never practice fumbling!

Step five: Repeat steps three and four with a different skill.

But back to the original foundation. Why learn this stuff at all, let alone learning it well enough to perform without thinking about it?

Simply this: if you keep a defensive firearm around "just in case" you ever need it, you should also have a set of habits in place "just in case" you ever need them. Those habits will see you through potentially dangerous situations, and they make it possible for you to think about solving the problem rather than wasting time and brain cells trying to remember how to run your gun.

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Old October 24, 2012, 05:24 PM   #40
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Its best to just know what you have and how to use it to the BEST of your ability. Training is not a bad idea but the best training is a real life situation. (That's where you learn the most)
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Old October 24, 2012, 05:48 PM   #41
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For me, it definitely seems so. My own experience is I have alot of semis and a few revolvers and rifles. I shoot all of them on a somehwat regular basis, and a few of them all of the time. My conditioned responses are all Glock, and it shows up quite often. Sometimes I get a new gun, like the Sig I bought a couple months ago, and love it right away, and want to think it may be the gun for me. But I always go back to Glock, its just what I am the best with. I would hope everyone who is into shooting would get to the point that handling thier gun would be like tying thier shoes.
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Old October 24, 2012, 07:57 PM   #42
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Its best to just know what you have and how to use it to the BEST of your ability. Training is not a bad idea but the best training is a real life situation. (That's where you learn the most)
I don't think a mugging or active shooter situation is where I want to learn how to handle a firearm!
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Old October 25, 2012, 05:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James K View Post
Maybe I am wrong but I like to think that after some 65 years of handling guns, as a soldier, armorer, LE officer, collector and shooter, I am reasonably competent at safe gun handling.

But nonsense like "... if you can't clear a jam, or reload while keeping your eyes on target, then you need to practice. This goes for semis and wheelguns" makes me cringe. That may (or may not) be good advice in combat; it is garbage on a range or in recreational shooting. In most peacetime situations, it can be a recipe for dangerous gun handling. Why would anyone want to fool around with a loaded and jammed gun without looking at what he was doing? If I see someone obeying that "dictum", I don't want to be in the same county.

Jim
I believe tests and timed competition have shown that looking while inserting a magazine in a semi-auto, or speed loader in a revolver, is faster than trying to do it by feel.

I'm fairly certain no one here is much faster than this.
If you can you must be famous, or shy.

Todd Jarrett Reload Techniques

Here is a second independent video, notice how he focuses on the magazine and the magazine well, just like Jarret did.

Speed Reload tips from S.W.A.T. Magazine.
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Old October 25, 2012, 05:30 PM   #44
zombietactics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45
"... I believe tests and timed competition have shown that looking while inserting a magazine in a semi-auto, or speed loader in a revolver, is faster than trying to do it by feel. ..."
I'm not aware of any actual "testing", but I'd be willing to stipulate for purpose of discussion that it's probably true.

That somewhat begs a few other questions though. The first is whether the speed of mag change is the most important thing in a self-defense encounter. It absolutely is, in competition ... but then nothing in competition is ever shooting back, you know where everything is ahead of time, and it seldom changes outside of some very predictable cases with so-called "moving" targets.

I'd offer that speed is fairly important in an SD situation. But if we're talking about a few tenths of second difference or less, then maintaining situational awareness, breaking tunnel vision, etc. might possibly have a higher survival value.

Of course not all cases are the same. If you've shot to slide-lock and the fight has not ended, speed might be of paramount importance. If you're doing a top-off, maybe Clint Smith's advice holds true ... getting it right is more important than getting it fast.

The wider question is "what is the better default behavior?", given a rational appraisal of what is likely vs. what is simply plausible or possible. I tend to think that training two different techniques (highly optimized for particular circumstances, and requiring a cognitive choice of which to employ) you'll end up doing neither especially well, and probably screwing it up as a result if it ever hits the fan.

Without claiming any general superiority, I'll simply note that my own preferred technique - the only one I train with - has the gun positioned near my line of sight, while I either keep my eyes on target or scan/assess. I don't "look at the gun" per se, but it's within my field of view.

Last edited by zombietactics; October 26, 2012 at 10:27 AM.
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Old October 26, 2012, 06:58 PM   #45
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It seems you learned a version of the Tueller Drill. This is usually done for police officers to show them how fast an assailant with a knive could get you from 21 feet away. Most officers don't even get their duty weapon out of their holsters before they get "cut or stabbed". The malfunction drill is a viable version to the main drill. This is why an officer may hold his fire until a BG with a knife crosses that 21 foot mark. They know how fast they could be killed.
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Old October 28, 2012, 03:31 AM   #46
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I just use Glocks to carry, or shoot an IDPA match.

This is second nature to me, my Glock 19 is always loaded, always chambered, in holster, on bedside table. Many moons ago, shooting 1911's, malfunction drills were automatic, now with 16 rounds, a spare Glock17 magazine, I can not remember a malfunction.

The average IDPA match is 120 rounds, mag changes from locked back slide? I give a quick peek at the pistol, carrying out and about, 16 rounds, reloads?

Not so much.
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Old October 30, 2012, 07:04 AM   #47
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Frankly, one thing that jumps out at me in this thread is that people really seem to have no confidence in automatic pistols, which have been in use by armies around the world for over a hundred years, both striker fired and hammer fired (if that makes a difference to you). Why in these latter days are we still worrying about that?
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Old October 30, 2012, 10:09 AM   #48
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Quote:
...one thing that jumps out at me in this thread is that people really seem to have no confidence in automatic pistols, which have been in use by armies around the world for over a hundred years,...
How can you possibly conclude that from this thread?

[1] People seem to have great confidence in semi-auto pistols. That's what most people carry for self defense and what are carried bu the vast majority of LEOs. That reflects confidence.

[2] But is is a fact that semi-auto pistols do malfunction on occasion. Therefore, appropriate training and practice should include dealing with the rare malfunction.

[3] In any case, for the military, a sidearm is a secondary weapon.
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Old October 30, 2012, 11:26 AM   #49
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Because in 46 posts, not counting yours and mine, thirteen mention revolvers.
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Old October 30, 2012, 11:45 AM   #50
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by BlueTrain
Because in 46 posts, not counting yours and mine, thirteen mention revolvers.
You really seem to have trouble getting your facts straight.

[1] Doing a search of this thread, six posts (including yours) mention the word "revolvers", and seven mention the word "revolver."

[2] Of those, only three express a preference for revolvers based on perceived better reliability.

[3] And how that translates to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
...one thing that jumps out at me in this thread is that people really seem to have no confidence in automatic pistols,...
is a complete mystery to me.
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