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Old September 28, 2012, 11:51 AM   #1
RamItOne
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How would you identify an intruder. Conn shooting

Sad story
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/natio...171589061.html

Would you issue verbal commands or only look for visual clues.

This occured outside the home, maybe he should have used more caution.
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Old September 28, 2012, 11:57 AM   #2
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What was the kid doing running around the neighbor's house in the middle of the night wearing dark clothing and a ski mask?

Quote:
The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said.
I blame the kid who was shot in this case. I feel for the father.
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Old September 28, 2012, 12:01 PM   #3
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Very sad, but would appear son made to attack according to some reports.

http://www.kltv.com/story/19663999/n...ut-its-his-son

Quote:
and they have not released what type of weapon Tyler was holding when he lunged for his father.
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Old September 28, 2012, 12:01 PM   #4
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Tell them to cease what they are doing, tell them the police are on the way. Tell them if they do not stop, they will be shot.
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Old September 28, 2012, 12:20 PM   #5
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I remember a case where a father shot and killed his daughter .The daughter did something stupid and died as a result .Kids do those things at times.
She was well aware that her father had a gun and had the will to use it .He later said that under the same circumstances he would do the same .

Sadly it's sometimes very difficult to get through to kids.Recently a local trooper was very frustrated when he investigated a fatal car crash .The dead were two kids that had been in the safe driving class he had just given.
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Old September 28, 2012, 01:15 PM   #6
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Anyone wearing a mask would make me *very* suspicious. What's this kid doing outside his female neighbors house in the dark at 1:00 AM?

Remember all those threads where we keep encouraging people to "stay in the house and call the police"? Wonder why? I'm not saying the outcome might have been any different, but imagine what the father is going through..
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Old September 28, 2012, 02:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
This occured outside the home, maybe he should have used more caution.
from what I understand andor have read at this point, his son(15yrs old) turned and made a beeline towards him when confronted with what at least appeared to be something shiny.

Bad Mistake

I can't help but wonder if this kid FORGOT he had a mask on. Too late now. I hope this man doesn't blame himself. I know he just wants his son back. They aren't planning to press charges BUT they are doing a check to make sure this firearm was legally registered in CT(they live on the border of NY). They said results from probe will take a week. I believe he will face charges for that issue if it comes back incorrect.
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Old September 28, 2012, 03:17 PM   #8
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Kids do stupid things. Adults have to make rapid decisions in situations like this. Was the kid responding to his fathers commands by coming to him? We'll never know. What was the kid doing out? Lots of questions left open, but that doesn't help the father as he lives with the results of his decision to act.

Part of any family training regarding firearms in the home should include repeated instructions on what to do (as a kid) when caught in a bad situation. Hands up and submissive and identify yourself when confronted, even if you aren't going to escape discipline.

This is a real "No-Win" situation...and the media and the legal system will only screw it up more and do further harm to the family.
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Old September 29, 2012, 11:16 AM   #9
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Fear is the problem here

We used to run around the neighborhood at night playing tag all the time. Now you have to worry a homeowner will shoot you if you hide in their bushes. Statistically crime is down yet the informational age has so "enlightened us to the possibilities" many think the worst case scenario when they hear a noise outside. The father's sister called him when she detected a prowler. Call the cops first. He should of just gone over and sat with her till they got there. How could you live with yourself after doing something like this? I couldn't.
Identifying an intruder? - easy someone you don't recognize in a place you don't expect them. now recognizing a credible threat thats the real question. for sure one should not go looking for it.
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Old September 29, 2012, 11:54 AM   #10
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Nimrod: I doubt you were playing tag at 1:00 AM with masks on.

I agree his sister should have called the cops. He should have. But he didn't.

Given that, it still seems he need not be charged. He was protecting his sister.
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Old September 29, 2012, 12:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Statistically crime is down...
You talkin National,State or Local stats?

Too, guess that depends on where ya live and stats don't mean a thing to a person/persons currently being victimized.


posted by kraigwy:

Quote:
What was the kid doing running around the neighbor's house in the middle of the night wearing dark clothing and a ski mask?

Quote:
The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said.
I blame the kid who was shot in this case. I feel for the father.
Agree with what kraigwy posted

Not that the boy couldn't have sneaked out of the house but one has to wonder where the parents thought this 15yr. old was at 1:00A.M.

A truly tragic event.

Prayers goin out to dad and family.

Last edited by shortwave; September 29, 2012 at 04:34 PM.
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Old September 29, 2012, 04:13 PM   #12
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Sad sad story and my prayers go out to the family.

That being said.. I would never leave the realtive safety of my home to confront someone outside. I would consider that a mistake but each person must judge their specific situation. Its really hard for me to understand why the teen didnt just speak to his father. Why run at him in the dark? I dont fault the father for feeling theatened.. I would have felt threatened as well.

A unwanted person outside my home is a trespasser.
A person entering my home without invitation is an intruder.
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Old September 29, 2012, 04:33 PM   #13
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I was just recalling to my wife the other day how these days kids have so much less respect for other people's property and clueless about the danger of trespassing. When I was a kid in the 60s in a rural area we pretty much expected if we were caught messing around on someone's yard or house late at night that we ran the risk of getting a load of salt or shot, and rightly so.

When we snuck out we stayed on the roads, our properties, community land, or vacant or open fields. We knew better than to prowl around someone's yard or house.
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Old September 29, 2012, 07:18 PM   #14
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+1 NWPilgrim

There was six of us boys and we did our share of sneaking out and not being where we were supposed to be when we got into our teens but things were often handled a bit different back then.

Example, at age 16, went to stay with a buddy of mine. We knew of an un-chaperoned party goin on at a school mates house. My buddy parents nor my parents let us run around with this particular school mate cause the boy was always in trouble.

We sneaked out and went to the party , were drinking and having a big time till my buddies dad showed up. He proceeded to snatch a knot in my buddy's and my butt. His dad then drove to my house, marched me up to the front door by the nape of the neck, knocked on the door and explained to my dad what was going on.
All this was about 2-2:30 in the morning.

Let me just tell ya that dad didn't like being woke up at that hour. Especially with dumb stuff.

Think I had a full beard by the time I was no longer grounded.... and split firewood every night and weekends till I could have won 1st place in a lumberjack contest. Think we heated the house with the wood I split for the next ten years.

Can still remember dad walking past as I would be splitting saying to me " just think, if you would have stayed where you had permission to be you would have 5 helpers(brothers) out here with ya".

Mom and Dad were big on trust but both believed very strongly that trust was earned, not given.
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Old September 29, 2012, 07:41 PM   #15
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A "house gun" should have a light on it. Would not have helped much in this case since the kid had a mask one. However, may have helped a bit and it's good to blind a drunk/druggy for a bit rather than having to shoot them.
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Old September 29, 2012, 09:10 PM   #16
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I believe in most states wearing a mask to covers one face, if not for costume partys, itself is a felony to conceal of the identity of the person. So that of itself is a crime.
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Old September 29, 2012, 09:30 PM   #17
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Originally posted by TheNocturnus:
Quote:
Tell them to cease what they are doing, tell them the police are on the way. Tell them if they do not stop, they will be shot.
If there is time to verbally confront an attacker, then this ^ is the appropriate response. "IF" being the key word here. In a stressful situation such as an individual, dressed in all black and a ski mask, lunging at you with a weapon, I feel that taking the time to verbally address the situation could get you hurt.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kraigwy: What was the kid doing running around the neighbor's house in the middle of the night wearing dark clothing and a ski mask?
This ^ is a good question.
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Old September 29, 2012, 09:51 PM   #18
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In this situation, the mask was odd.

In winter in New England, a ski mask would not be unusual.

Articles of clothing have to be viewed in context.
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Old September 29, 2012, 10:40 PM   #19
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I believe in most states wearing a mask to covers one face, if not for costume partys, itself is a felony to conceal of the identity of the person. So that of itself is a crime.
States(and some City's) vary widely as to the ruling of this law including whether it's a felony or misdemeanor. Too, in the states/city's where it is a felony, it's usually a felony only in restricted areas and locations. A misdemeanor in unrestricted areas.
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Old September 29, 2012, 11:51 PM   #20
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I dated a lady Corrections Officer who worked pretty crazy hours. She would get off work, come over, take a shower and crawl in bed. Several times, she tried to sneak in without waking me and I put a stop to that. I told her that if she was challenged, respond immediately in a loud voice as I was going to open fire! She took it seriously and we had no further problems.

Now, I have Jake, my Toy Fox Terrier who alerts if someone is 50 feet away from the house! The boy has radar ears and misses nothing! I'm certain that Jake would protect me in the event a BG tried to enter and he can tell friend from foe. If Jake barks, I am armed!

I live in rural Texas and protecting your own home is how it is here. Cops arrive just to make reports, later. With that in mind, there's no wonder why our crime rate is extremely low here! My neighbors and I are all armed, are very close and look after each other. Bad guys don't like that.

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Old September 30, 2012, 05:32 AM   #21
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Quote:
How would you identify an intruder. Conn shooting
Let's see, first of all, the intruder is inside, not outside. What was present there was as the sister described it, a possible burglar. Basically, the kid was a prowler, was confronted by the father and moved toward the father in an agressive manner with an openly displayed knife..

Everybody worries about shooting the wrong person inside their homes (hence maybe the thread's title, too?) proclaiming things like, "It could be your neighbor or a family member." It could. Neighbors and family members have been known to break in, burgle, rob, rape, and murder. Just because it is a family member or neighbor does not mean it is not a legitimate threat.

Quote:
I blame the kid who was shot in this case. I feel for the father.
Yep, the father did well, protecting his sister and himself.

Quote:
I live in rural Texas and protecting your own home is how it is here. Cops arrive just to make reports, later. With that in mind, there's no wonder why our crime rate is extremely low here! My neighbors and I are all armed, are very close and look after each other. Bad guys don't like that.
Naw, crime may be low where you are because you are in a rural location, like it is around the rest of the country. That isn't a special feature to Texas.

Quote:
I believe in most states wearing a mask to covers one face, if not for costume partys, itself is a felony to conceal of the identity of the person. So that of itself is a crime.
Please cite the laws from more than 2 states where simply wearing a mask that covers one's face is a felony. It may be a misdemeanor in many states and may be part of felony charges during the commission of a crime, but it isn't a felony in most states by itself.
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Old September 30, 2012, 09:55 AM   #22
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About the father and daughter. IIRC - the parents went out. The daughter was supposed to be away. She came home early. Decided to hide and go BOO. Left the door open for a clue. Dad sees the open door and instead of calling the law, decides to enter. She jumps out to go BOO. He center punches her. She dies saying: Daddy, I love you.

He might have said he would have done it again, but if this is the case, I saw him interviewed and he was devastated and broken up.

Same horrible outcome with the LA case of the Japanese student. The shooting might have been a 'good shoot' but the consequences weren't.

Bottom line: unless you are in immediate threat or need to save someone, back off and call the cops. Look stupid if it is a racoon.
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Old September 30, 2012, 11:04 AM   #23
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I believe I read a report indicating that the next door neighbor was the sister of the dad, and therefore the aunt of the prowler. Most people are going to go next door to help their sister, as opposed to telling her to call the police and sit tight for whatever amount of time it takes for them to respond.

And the same report identified the shiny object in the boy's hand as a knife.

So, if the dad/brother was on his way next door to provide aid and protection to his sister, and a masked person rushes him with a knife, I don't see how he can be expected to react any other way. I am sure he is heartbroken, but I hope he sees the rationality of his actions at some point.

As to the title of the thread, while I certainly subscribe to all of the Four Rules, including being sure of one's target, a masked man approaching with a knife is a legitimate target by any reasonable standard. It cannot be attendant to a defender to unmask or in any other way insist on identifying an armed masked assailant before defending himself and his loved ones.

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Old September 30, 2012, 12:03 PM   #24
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Saving your family is different from deciding to clear a house. I think we agree on that. But I would call the law too! And tell her to try to barricade herself somewhere.
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Old September 30, 2012, 01:02 PM   #25
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Quote:
Bottom line: unless you are in immediate threat or need to save someone, back off and call the cops. Look stupid if it is a racoon.
Would this situation have a better ending if cops had shot a guy in a ski mask coming at them with a weapon?
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