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Old October 2, 2012, 02:19 PM   #1
Stressfire
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Gah! Why am I still leading?

Original load:
4.4 grains Bullseye
125gr MBC Roundnose
OAL 1.13

Supposedly well within specs for both gun and bullet according to Alliant powder manual. But was getting a lot, and I mean a lot, of lead in the barrel. So badly that I had strips of it hanging from the rifling after 150 rounds.

I dropped the powder load significantly and reduced OAL.
Current load:
3.8 grains Bullseye
125gr MBC RN
OAL 1.10

50 rounds and there is still some lead smearing on the lands. If nothing else, it's better than it was, but still not what I would consider acceptable.

I did slug the barrel and got .355 on the button, give or take .0001 or so. A .356 bullet should be fine, shouldn't it?
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Old October 2, 2012, 04:07 PM   #2
floydster
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Put some bullets in a baggie, put in a half dozen drops of Alox, swish it around, dump them out on wax paper, let them dry over nite, your leading will be over---I take it this a 9mm???
I use 3.5 grs. of Bullseye pushing the 125 gr. MB--no leading in all three of my 9's.
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Old October 2, 2012, 04:24 PM   #3
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Your bullets are pretty hard. I would expect the faster loads to work better.

I would tend to use a slow powder, but that is just me.

Did you clean out all of the copper in the barrel before you started shooting lead? That can cause leading.
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Old October 2, 2012, 07:54 PM   #4
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I agree with jepp2, clean your barrel, scour that thing till it's mirror bright and operating room clean. Then go back to your 4.4 grains and I bet you will be fine.
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Old October 2, 2012, 08:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
I did slug the barrel and got .355 on the button, give or take .0001 or so. A .356 bullet should be fine, shouldn't it?
Not if it's "give .0001"

What kind of gun is it? The lead I shoot through my CZs is .358" - a lot bigger than .356". Also keep in mind that commercial lead bullets often have a harder lube than desirable for handgun applications. The tumble lube suggestion by the other poster (floydster) might actually give you some improvement. Also where is the leading occurring in your barrel? More at the muzzle end or more toward the chamber?

You shouldn't have to put up with leading at all when using lead bullets. I can literally shoot thousands through my barrel without cleaning it, and I still just use a patch when I want it to look extra pretty.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:17 PM   #6
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Going to a .357 bullet would also help.
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Old October 3, 2012, 03:05 AM   #7
oldandslow
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sf, 10/3/12

When I started reloading I had problems with turning a rifled pistol barrel into a smoothbore within twenty rounds. And this was after I thought I'd done everything right. With the help of the gentlemen at www.castboolits.gunloads.com and here I figured out the problem.

First make sure you are measuring your barrel slug with a micrometer and not a caliper. That small bit of inaccuracy in the caliper's measurement can make a big difference.

Second, measure the bullet diameter before loading it (as you have done) and then pull the bullet after reloading it into a cartridge. Often there is enough swaging of the bullet when being pushed into the brass and then crimped that the bullet ends up undersized. My bullets would start out at 1-2 thousandths oversize before loading and end up 1 thousandth of an inch undersize after being pulled, which means I had lots of hot gas spraying past the undersized bullet and causing leading.

The primary problem with leading is usually bullet fit/size. Other factors like lube type, lube groove type (ie, tumble lube vs. conventional grooves), bullet speed and hardness are usually addressed once bullet-barrel fit is optimal. To overcome my bullet swaging problem I just ordered an Accurate Mold Company mold (both .45 and 9mm and 44 special) at two thousandths over barrel diameter and they drop into my brass without sizing (usually at requested size to one-half a thousandths oversize) and leave no leading whatsoever in the barrel. So for my 9mm I use bullets at .357-.358, .45 at .453 and 44 special at .432-423". Good luck and check out the castboolits.gunloads.com site- it's a great site for reloaders.

best wishes- oldandslow
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Old October 3, 2012, 12:09 PM   #8
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I take it this a 9mm???
Might have helped if I had mentioned the caliber Yes, it's 9mm. I have been meaning to pick up some Alox, but my local shop always seems to be out

Quote:
Did you clean out all of the copper in the barrel before you started shooting lead?
Yes, the barrel has been soaked and scrubbed within an inch of it's life.

Quote:
What kind of gun is it?
It's a Beretta 92FS

Quote:
Also where is the leading occurring in your barrel? More at the muzzle end or more toward the chamber?
With the 4.4 load it was along the whole length, with 3.8 it seems to be more towards the middle.

Any thoughts on where to find .357 9mm bullets? Just use .357s or what?
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Old October 3, 2012, 01:12 PM   #9
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Maybe time for KG12 or Tubbs Final Finish. You should not be leading at all or very little.
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Old October 3, 2012, 03:38 PM   #10
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Any thoughts on where to find .357 9mm bullets? Just use .357s or what?
92fs... oh dear. Some of those barrels apparently slug to .358! I'm afraid you'll have to slug your barrel. The .357" might be useless for you.
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Old October 3, 2012, 04:02 PM   #11
Stressfire
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Best I can tell, it slugged right at .355

Will try Alox if I can find any.

Quote:
Maybe time for KG12 or Tubbs Final Finish
What are those?


Any chance it could be the alloy/makeup of the bullets themselves?
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Old October 3, 2012, 04:31 PM   #12
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I think the only way to get leading at those levels is with unlubed bullets. Can you see lube in the groove? I shoot lead pre-lubed with the blue lube. Leading is never a problem. You must be frustrated as h--- after cleaning that thoroughly, just to get leaded again.
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Old October 3, 2012, 04:42 PM   #13
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Stressfire, perhaps it's only the 92fs European (Italian) made guns that have such huge bores because they are notorious for having this issue - like 358" which is a heck of a lot bigger than .355". I don't know anyone up here with the US made version because frankly they're not much in demand.

But that makes your leading problem even more mysterious....

Edit: But now other questions now come to mind... like how are you loading these? Are you using crimp or Lee FCD? Have you pulled a bullet and measured it along its base to where it fits into the case?

Last edited by Gerry; October 3, 2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Old October 3, 2012, 05:30 PM   #14
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I've shot the MB 125 Smallball in 3 of my 9's without leading at all. That's with Unique ; )
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Old October 3, 2012, 05:38 PM   #15
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Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)
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Old October 3, 2012, 06:16 PM   #16
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Are they keyholing?

Definitely go .357 though, if not .358.
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Old October 3, 2012, 06:53 PM   #17
Stressfire
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Quote:
Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)
What about 700X?

Quote:
Are they keyholing?
Not at all, straight through. Actually, aside from the lead fouling the 4.4 load was insanely accurate

Quote:
Stressfire, perhaps it's only the 92fs European (Italian) made guns that have such huge bores because they are notorious for having this issue - like 358" which is a heck of a lot bigger than .355". I don't know anyone up here with the US made version because frankly they're not much in demand.

But that makes your leading problem even more mysterious....

Edit: But now other questions now come to mind... like how are you loading these? Are you using crimp or Lee FCD? Have you pulled a bullet and measured it along its base to where it fits into the case?
Mine is the Italian version. To load I am using a straight 3-die RCBS set. Taper crimp only, and it does not appear to be biting into the lead at all.
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Old October 3, 2012, 08:00 PM   #18
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Maybe time for KG12 or Tubbs Final Finish
Quote:
What are those?
Kg12 is a copper cleaner specifically for barrels with a copper problem.

http://www.kgcoatings.com/cleaning/k...-bore-cleaner/

Tubbs Final Finish is a bore cleaning and polishing kit. Makes a smooth barrel making it hard for lead to grab hold and cling to it. I'm betting looking through it with a naked eye and a light it looks pretty good but a borescope would show you some imperfections you can't see any other way.

http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-tms
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Old October 3, 2012, 08:22 PM   #19
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"[FrankenMauser Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)]"

That would be a good start, As peak preasure would be as the boolits Is alredy started down barrle more IMO ; )
Y/D
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Old October 3, 2012, 11:49 PM   #20
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What about 700X?
Too fast. It's right up there with Bullseye and Titegroup.
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Old October 4, 2012, 08:11 AM   #21
Stressfire
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Did not get a chance to check or do anything last night...darn women and their needs for "us time"

Anyways, will hopefully get to check everything out tonight - should the bullet be getting swaged down during seating, what is done to correct that? Just back off the crimp a bit?
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Old October 4, 2012, 02:20 PM   #22
FrankenMauser
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The bullets shouldn't be getting drawn down or shaved during seating.

Make sure you're expanding the cases far enough, and try crimping in a separate step.
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Old October 4, 2012, 02:34 PM   #23
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Try a slower burn rate powder. (AA#2, Unique, 231, etc.)
Good advice, but your suggestion of #2 in here is very much contradictory. Perhaps you meant AA#5?

AA#2 is a scorching fast powder, like Titegroup.
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Old October 4, 2012, 05:56 PM   #24
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I have great luck with tightgroup in everything ive tried it in.
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Old October 6, 2012, 08:31 AM   #25
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For me Titegroup and cast bullets do not mix--powder is too hot.

Smokeyloads
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