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Old September 9, 2012, 09:55 PM   #1
dyl
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Cheaper way to feed ML?

Hey all, never thought I'd do it but I have a muzzleloader now - a TC Impact.
Sabots were expensive - $16 for 10 Hornady 300 grain, something like 11 dollars for a box of 250 grn Shockwaves, and 7 for Thompson hollow points.

What ways do you feed your ML more cheaply while still making use of the accuracy?

Which sabot - bullet combination have you had luck with (especially anyone owning an Impact or Omega...similar model) and where do you get them separately?

I'm used to reloading for handgun so I got sticker shock after seeing the sabot ammo. It's like a certain brand of computer printer where the ink costs more thank the machine!

As always, specific examples are greatly appreciated.
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Old September 10, 2012, 07:23 AM   #2
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250grn Hornady SSTs in the Low-drag sabot. Those are the EXACT same as the T/C Shockwave but with a red instead of yellow tip. Hornady makes T/Cs Shockwaves. The difference, other than the color, is the price. The Hornady branded bullets are cheaper per bullet (by quite a bit).
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Old September 10, 2012, 07:48 AM   #3
dyl
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Have you tried buying the plastic sabots and bullets separately and assembling your own? I know it can be done but don't know which individual components. Just a suspicion that we are paying more for convenience than value of the goods

Last edited by dyl; September 11, 2012 at 05:49 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old September 10, 2012, 08:40 AM   #4
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I buy my sabots in bulk from MMP at about $7.50 per 50 and get Hornady XTP bullets from my local pawn shop for around $19.00 per 100. That comes to around $34.00 per 100 rounds or 34 cents per round. At the ranges I shoot (150 yards and in) There is no difference in accuracy or stopping power in this load and any of the other bullets you are buying at $1.50 to $2.00 apiece.

The bullets you are buying are not a bit better, they are just custom made for the rifle maker, and they try to make you think that they are a whiz-bang sure-fire perfect and only bullet to shoot in their rifles. Don't be fooled by the advertising, and get yourself into a cheaper way to shoot. It's tooooo much fun to have to watch your wallet in order to shoot more.
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Old September 10, 2012, 08:44 AM   #5
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You could cast your own lead ......
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Old September 10, 2012, 11:20 AM   #6
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Quote:
prbullet.com.
I've used there products in the past with excellent results. These folks are indeed B/P enthusiast's themselves. I really like there sabot bullet combo's. As I do have a 45 cal 1-28 quick twist barrel from G/M for my T/C cap lock Hawken. Having the ability to reload after 4-5 shots even with the dirtiest of powders being used. No swabbing >No problems what so ever in accomplishing. Peruse their web site and read the many articles and watch their file movie clip. You'll find prbullet.com quite informative dyl. There is even a plus to be had while visiting there web site. At times they do have their products on sale at very reasonable prices. Good luck with your quest Sir.
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Old September 10, 2012, 11:43 AM   #7
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Yes you can !!!

Quote:
Have you tried buying the plastic sabots and bullets separately and assembling your own? I know it can be done but don't know which individual components.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I recommend using cast lead bullets. I too buy my sabots and bullets separate. I never got caught up in buying them together as basically I'm cheap. Time after time I've see folks trying to get scoped in, using the higher priced spread and complaining about it. ...

I buy .44 or .45 lead cast "pistol" bullets in bulk of 500, in the 230 to 240grn range. Currently my hunter is a .50, so buy my sabots in bulk. I either get the 50/44 or 50/45 rated and don't mix them up or you will have loading problems. Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I remove the lube from the cast bullets and make sure to wipe clean with solvent. Once I get sighted in and want to step up to a hotter hunting load, I can finish out with the Hornady XLP in 240 grn. However, I might add that I have had good performance with just the lead bullets. Most of the time, I put a bore button between the sabot and powder. ....

Oh yes, as mentioned, you can cast your own alloy pistol bullets and save even more. ....


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Last edited by Pahoo; September 10, 2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old September 10, 2012, 04:59 PM   #8
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I been doing what most of these guys are doing. But a box of the .45 cal XTPs HP bullets and a bag of .451/.454 sabot plastic cups and they are good deer hunting rounds. Zore them in at 100 yrds and take to the woods. Now that I mold my own bullets I will be trying them out this year in the plastic sabot for .45 cal bullets. Give it a try with about 80 to 100 grs of powder and I'm sure you'll like the results.
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Old September 13, 2012, 09:07 PM   #9
dyl
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Thanks for the info,

I looked up those suggestions and even without a pawn-store connection for cheap bullets, I can say it seems like I'll be able to feed this muzzle loader for less than I've paid for 38 special ammo at times! (well, then again, that's without the powder taken into consideration)

Oh, a question about the lead projectiles. I'm hearing the suggestion that they go into Sabots right? I know that there are conicals that need no sabot - but I wonder : How bad does the barrel lead up?

I never did find out what a "bore button" was either. Anyone know? Is that a patch basically?
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Old September 13, 2012, 09:35 PM   #10
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Plastic sabots can "plastic" a bore just like lead bullets can lead a bore. You ought to see the plastic fouling that accumulates on the screw in chokes of my modern shotgun.

Is it really impossible to shoot old fashioned patched roundballs in a modern muzzleloader?
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Old September 13, 2012, 10:28 PM   #11
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IIRC.....

Quote:
Is it really impossible to shoot old fashioned patched roundballs in a modern muzzleloader?
Depends upon the rate of twist of the barrel.

1 turn in 66" is for patched round balls.

1 turn in 48" is for conventional lubed lead bullets

1 turn in 32" (or faster) is for saboted pistol bullets and the modern spendy-trendy ML specialty ammo (Shockwave, Powerbelt, Aerotip, Gee-Gaw Gottem, or whatever Marketing comes up with this year)

The longer the bullet, the higher rpm (and tighter twist) needed to keep it flying point first.

I think the prices charged for some of these modern muzzleloaders and their fodder is outrageous for what you are getting..... It's not like there's a spendy action to make, and the pressures involved are nowhere near the 50-60K PSI like a modern centerfire cartridge generates..... so why are these guns costing what a modern centerfire gun does, if not more?

.....and a 385 gr plain cast lead ML bullet made by Hornady is 15 bucks/20 ($.75/ea. at Cabela's. A 300 gr jacketed XTP is 20 bucks..... for 50 ($.40/ea). Seems to me there is a bit more involve in making a jacketed HP than a simple cast lead semi-wadcutter..... and the "powerbelt" plated or pure lead bullets with the plastic tip and a sabot stuck on the bottom can be as much as $2 each.
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Old September 13, 2012, 10:37 PM   #12
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Patched round balls can be successfully used in fast twist rifled barrels by reducing the powder load. This will necessarily reduce range as well, of course. Experimentation will be necessary to determine just what loads work with specific barrels and projectiles.
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Old September 13, 2012, 10:48 PM   #13
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Patched round balls can be successfully used in fast twist rifled barrels by reducing the powder load.
Fine for punching paper, or plinking cans, though your trajectory would be different I would think.

Reducing velocity would not be a desirable thing for hunting.
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Old September 14, 2012, 01:18 AM   #14
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Hello dyl. Why not try what the 19th century long-range match shooters, as well as big game hunters used...paper-patched bullets?
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Old September 14, 2012, 01:21 AM   #15
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Velocity

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Reducing velocity would not be a desirable thing for hunting.
Maybe. Kinda depends on the amount of reduction and the intended use.
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Old September 14, 2012, 01:31 AM   #16
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Maybe. Kinda depends on the amount of reduction and the intended use.
Seeing that stabilizing a bullet is about rpm's ..... a 1:48 twist is a bit lest that 3/4 as long for 1 turn as a 1:66 .... so to get equal rpm's, you neet to drop velocity by about 25%, no?

Not good for deer, as a patched roundball leaves little enough of a blood trail as it is, and is not terribly lethal - it needs every ounce of energy it can get....

I would not be using a Black powder gun on small game- I can use a 4 cent .22lr for that.
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Old September 14, 2012, 05:38 AM   #17
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1:48 is a happy medium between round balls and conicals but isn't best for either. Round balls will work out of faster twists but powder reduction has to be so much that hunting large game with it would be out of the question.
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Old September 14, 2012, 05:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Hello dyl. Why not try what the 19th century long-range match shooters, as well as big game hunters used...paper-patched bullets?
I think that most of the muzzle loaders that shot paper patched bullets used removable false muzzles to get the bullet and the paper patch started in the bore. Paper patched bullets were also used in breech loading guns.
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Old September 14, 2012, 06:34 AM   #19
dyl
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Paper patched bullets?

Are we speaking of round balls or conicals? or perhaps a jacketed bullet of slightly less diameter with the paper acting as a sabot?
I've got a TC Impact with something like a 1:28 twist rate.

You all are correct about the prices - I haven't tried any Powerbelts because Walmart had them for something in the neighborhood of $20-ish for 10. How about I take a lead ball and just patch it with a dollar bill to make it seem more effective...
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Old September 14, 2012, 07:22 AM   #20
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How about I take a lead ball and just patch it with a dollar bill to make it seem more effective...
They keep making dollars up out of thin air, then $1 dollar bills will be cheaper and easier to find than mattress ticking!

Shooting cast lead bullets in a 1:28 would be an option- you just need to find a bullet mold making a bullet long enough to need to be spun that fast..... think heavy.
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Old September 14, 2012, 10:02 AM   #21
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Bore-Buttons, Wonder Wads; same, same

Quote:
I never did find out what a "bore button" was either. Anyone know? Is that a patch basically?
Not really as I don't use them on RB's, only sabots and conicals, in rifles. ....


http://possibleshop.com/s-s-wads.html

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Old September 14, 2012, 04:42 PM   #22
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Hello, While most all of the match rifles used a false muzzle to start Paper-patched bullets straight into bore..There are two distinct types of paper patches..the earliest used strips of paper..calculated to form up around slug as it was pushed into bore..just touching each others edge & not overlapping. On these, the false muzzles were milled with corresponding slots for paper strips to lie in.
The other paper-patch bullet--and the type I am thinking of is the wrapped patch..the same as the early breech-loaders used.
Now I know dyl doesn't have a false muzzle on his rifle..but I do know a bore sized soft-lead slug will obturate from the kick of real black powder to fill rifling grooves. Suppose he sized a soft lead slug to just under bore dia., & patched it up so as to be a snug fit in bore..I'll bet it would work..and he could get all the velocity possible with no leading.
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Old September 16, 2012, 05:38 PM   #23
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Think I'll stick with the rd balls for muzzle loading and the right gun for the game I'm after.
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Old September 16, 2012, 06:57 PM   #24
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If you really want to shoot for cheap, it don't get much cheaper than a roundball twist .36 caliber barrel and patched 000 buckshot, which is about .350 in diameter and can be bought for about $25 bucks for a five pound box from Hornady.
Five pounds is about 538 balls in 000 buck.
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Old September 17, 2012, 11:57 AM   #25
dyl
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I took a look at those bore buttons- seem pretty inexpensive. Would that help with fouling? The breech plug seized when I tried to remove it at home - and this is only after just 3 shots that day! (swabbing in between)
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