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Old September 30, 2012, 08:07 PM   #1
Joe Chicago
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Priceless

Weatherby Vanguard S2, .308 Win: $425
Redfield Revolution 2-7 scope: $165
Box of Remington CoreLokt 180gr: $19.99

Shooting a 9/16" group with an entry level rifle and scope using inexpensive factory ammunition that is sold everywhere: priceless.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:34 PM   #2
dahermit
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Not to disparage your good group, but with only three shots there is a good probability of chance that increases in proportion to how accurate the rifle is. How about shooting a five shot group to rule-out chance.
Bench rest (and other competitions), competition established the standard of measurement at five shots (and in some cases, ten shot),. If you do not follow that convention, it is more difficult (comparison is not valid), to compare your group relative to five shot groups.
If someone wants to argue the fact, look-up the bench-rest record for three-shot groups.
http://internationalbenchrest.com/re...roup/index.php
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Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?

Last edited by dahermit; September 30, 2012 at 08:46 PM.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:42 PM   #3
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Also priceless

Not your $610,but for $725 I got a Ruger American .270 with redfield 4x12 mounted & bore sighted tax lisence & dealer prep tax included out the door. It is flat from 100 to 400 yards. Got 3 cyotes at 200,250&300yrds out of the box,well I sighted it 3" high at 100 yards . That is all it is intended for, just dogs waking me up at 5 am.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:46 PM   #4
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JEEZ leave the guy alone & ask the Doc to increase the meds again, were just having fun here.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:47 PM   #5
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Double post
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?

Last edited by dahermit; October 1, 2012 at 09:29 AM.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:51 PM   #6
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Two hole groups? One hole groups? Just having fun here also, but note the part about not being able to compare three shot groups to five shot groups. A three shot group is statistacally unreliable, unless it can be repeated several times...or, five shots to begin with.
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:53 PM   #7
Joe Chicago
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Dahermit, slowly step back from the bench rest standards manual and pop open a beer. It is a deer rifle. And an inexpensive one at that. With an inexpensive scope. Shooting inexpensive ammo. My point here is that it is possible to get good accuracy from basic gear these days. It is a good day to be a hunter or shooting enthusiast.
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Old September 30, 2012, 09:16 PM   #8
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Groups

One does not get many chances to put 5 or 10 shot groups in deer or cyotes.
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:01 AM   #9
AllenJ
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Congrats on your success Joe, I am getting the same from my Vanguard S2 in 243 as is a friend who picked one up in 270WSM. When I went looking for a new rifle Weatherby was not even on my list but once I handled one, tried the trigger, and saw the price I could not resist.
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:26 AM   #10
dahermit
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Quote:
Dahermit, slowly step back from the bench rest standards manual and pop open a beer. It is a deer rifle. And an inexpensive one at that. With an inexpensive scope. Shooting inexpensive ammo. My point here is that it is possible to get good accuracy from basic gear these days. It is a good day to be a hunter or shooting enthusiast.
You guys have missed my point. I wrote a computer program once that printed random shots on a target within a "good" hypothetical grouping capability of one inch. I was taken aback at how often three shots groups were but random chance...all three touching by chance. And the smaller the hypothetical grouping capability, the more frequent the occurrence of a really good three-shot group. On the other hand, with five shots, there was very little occurrence of a random teaser group. Therefore, it is very likely that a single three-shot group does not indicate inherent accuracy of a rifle and posting that group is poor evidence and could be misleading.
Quote:
My point here is that it is possible to get good accuracy from basic gear these days.
With one three-shot group, we still do not know if it is possible. Did you only shoot the rifle three times? If you shot more, why were those shots not shown also?
__________________
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:34 AM   #11
dahermit
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Quote:
One does not get many chances to put 5 or 10 shot groups in deer or cyotes.
That is correct. Nevertheless, to test for accuracy of a rifle or to there is a very good reason to shoot more than three shots. Unless you do not understand random chance as it applies to shooting accuracy.
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
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Old October 1, 2012, 09:55 AM   #12
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Dahermit, I shot at least three x three-shot groups with several different types of factory hunting ammunition. For each ammunition type I set up fresh targets during a range cease fire so the first group with each ammunition was with a cooler barrel than the other two groups. As expected with a number 2 contour barrel, the second and third groups opened up as the barrel heated up. I did not have the time to wait 10 minutes between shots to always shoot with a cool barrel.

The rifle also shot sub moa three shot groups with Federal Game King 165gr and Winchester Power Max 150gr ammunition. Given the manufacturer's claim that the rifle will shoot one MOA three-shot groups with premium ammo, I am pretty happy that it shoots sub MOA three-shot groups with inexpensive ammo.

Your point about five shot groups being a better indication of a rifle's accuracy is well taken. You still need to put down the benchrest standards guide and open a cold one. Or get a hunting rifle and sit in a deer stand.
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Old October 1, 2012, 10:25 AM   #13
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Joe,

I am with you here. I spent a lot of time gathering and plotting XBar and R charts on all kinds of things.

Dahermit is correct that three shot groups do not mean much for BR shooters.

For that matter, neither do 5 shot groups.

What is really important is what kind of use YOU have for the rifle.

If you are using it for hunting, then confidence in where the first shot goes is the important thing for you. All the rest is just fluff.

If you are anticipating BR shooting, then you will enter a whole 'nother place.

In any event, enjoy your rifle.

Dahermit: No insult intended, I hope none is taken.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:12 AM   #14
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Congrats on the new rifle it looks to be a good shooter.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:17 AM   #15
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"Not to disparage your good group, but with only three shots there is a good probability of chance that increases in proportion to how accurate the rifle is. How about shooting a five shot group to rule-out chance."

hey, how about 5 round, 10 round, 20 round groups?
just kidding.......i have 3 weatherby vanguards in 243, 7mm mag and 300 win mag and all of them shoot like yours. congrats on your weatherby, your gonna like it
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:38 AM   #16
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Quote:
Or get a hunting rifle and sit in a deer stand
You have implied a lack of experience with hunting/sporting rifles. You still do not get what I intended. I have been seeking accuracy with sporting/hunting rifles all my life (I am 69). I do not shoot bench rest rifles. I am however, very interested in the accuracy of sporting weight rifles and have pursued that end all my life with some surceases including cast-lead bullets in sporting rifles. I have hunted and killed many, many deer in my lifetime.
Many times, I have been seduced by teaser, three-round groups only to re-fire a five-shot group that demonstrated that my hand load was not as accurate as the three shot group indicated.
If you are convinced that your three shot group is indicative of an accurate rifle and load combination, just shoot another three shot group and post it...it will end my having the frustration of trying to explain statistics to people who do not understand them and their relevancy to the shooting sport. If your combo is accurate, you should be able to replicate that group size. Just shoot another group. Please do it quickly, the once-per-years are beginning to come out of the woodwork.
__________________
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?

Last edited by dahermit; October 1, 2012 at 11:44 AM.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:48 AM   #17
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Dahermit,

Maybe he is not as interested in that aspect as you are.

It is performing for him better than he anticipated. He is happy. Time to let this go.

You can spend a lifetime trying to prove accuracy or you can go out and hunt.

In your case, you do both. I understand the point you are trying to make.

At some point you have to give up data collection and go have fun.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:53 AM   #18
dahermit
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Quote:
"Not to disparage your good group, but with only three shots there is a good probability of chance that increases in proportion to how accurate the rifle is. How about shooting a five shot group to rule-out chance."

hey, how about 5 round, 10 round, 20 round groups?
just kidding.......i have 3 weatherby vanguards in 243, 7mm mag and 300 win mag and all of them shoot like yours. congrats on your weatherby, your gonna like it
5 would be very good, 10 would be even better, 20 would remove any and all doubt. But then you are not going to get the wows from the Johnny six-packs. And yes, Weatherby rifles, including the Vanguards have always been nice rifles. At one time, you could get one from a bank in Colorado in lieu of interest if one would deposit $5000 or so in a savings account. I would have liked to have a Vanguard because of the selection of standard chamberings...I did not care for proprietary cartridges with their strange radius instead of angles.
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
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Old October 1, 2012, 12:30 PM   #19
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I have to agree with a hunting rifle a sub MOA three shot group gives me the warm fuzzies. However I loose those warm fuzzies if it doesn't keep the same level of accuracy the next time I'm at the range. I shoot a lot of three shot groups and get a high level of accuracy with most of my hunting rifles, if I'm doing my part on the trigger.

The real test will be the next few targets you shoot. I'd go to the range bang out another three shot group with your old target stapled behind the new one. If the next three shot group is sub MOA and overlaps the old three shot group then I'd start feeling better about my rifle and my ability to shoot it. If you do that for one or two more range sessions after that and you keep all the rounds under an inch with the same POI you have a sub MOA rifle, but I'd be pretty happy if it didn't go over 1.5" for 9-12 rounds.

That will only work however if you haven't adjusted your sights and cleaned your rifle. If you adjusted your scope than you have to start all over again. If you cleaned your rifle I'd at least shoot a couple of fouling shots before I started shooting for groups.

The problem is a lot of the time I'm able to consistantly put togheter a sub MOA three shot group, and the next time I'm at the range I'm unable to get the same load to group as well. I blame it on me most of the time and most of the time I'm correct something has failed in my mechanics. I have to agree one three shot group is nice but doesn't make a sub MOA rifle, 3-4 three shot groups same POI and under an 1" does make a sub MOA rifle.
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Old October 1, 2012, 12:31 PM   #20
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Joe you could shoot that Vanguard all day into that group. I like mine, it shoots 1/2 moa 5 shot groups, With 5 different loads.......

Good luck hunting and happy shootin dude.
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Old October 1, 2012, 01:30 PM   #21
Joe Chicago
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Dahermit, I already have posted other groups shot that same day with different ammunition that were sub MOA. I was not suggesting that you have no experience hunting. I would not pretend to know what your skills or experience levels are. I was suggesting, however, that applying benchrest standards to a hunting rifle that will likely be shot exactly one time at a deer this season is overkill. Besides, some time in a peaceful deer stand looking and listening for a buck might relax you a bit.
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Old October 1, 2012, 01:40 PM   #22
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Taylor, during my next trip to the range I shall 1. shoot a couple rounds to foul the bore (I just cannot put away a dirty rifle), 2. shoot a three round group with Rem CoreLokt 180gr to confirm performance and check my sights with that specific load (they seem to be around an inch off), 3. make corrections to my sights using three shot groups to confirm, and 4. practice shooting from the kneeling and standing positions at deer targets.

Hopefully, in December I shall be able to post a picture of a nice buck taken with my Weatherby.
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Old October 1, 2012, 02:01 PM   #23
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I have a bone-stock 700SPS in .223 that will shoot .5 inch three-shot groups, but put 10 consecutive shots into 1.25 inch all with factory. I only have a x7 Nikon Prostaff on it. That is still remarkable.
-SS-
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Old October 1, 2012, 04:17 PM   #24
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Draw 5 one inch circles and put 1 round in each circle at 100 yards without long pause. That's how I like to measure sub 1 inch capability for hunting rifles. Tests the shooter and rifle. I never understood the bullet touching reasoning because there are too many variables with each shot.
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Old October 2, 2012, 05:55 AM   #25
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I never understood the bullet touching reasoning because there are too many variables with each shot.

All the "bad" variables are exposed when you can't put bullets in the very same hole, hopefully when your shooting form is at it's peak there are zeroe variables that will keep you from grouping touching groups... in simple terms it means you and your rifle are doing repeatable things!
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