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Old September 30, 2012, 02:29 PM   #26
hogdogs
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How would you identify an intruder.
Positively.... Before firing a shot I would positively ID the target as not being allowed here before sending a round down range...

I choose to live where the likelihood of a person cutting across my property is less than VERY REMOTE so much of that particular risk is mitigated by my choice of residence....

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Old September 30, 2012, 02:34 PM   #27
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Look stupid if it is a racoon.
Racoon burglars/intruders are real. However, they are more easily handled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6RUY...eature=related

Starts at 0:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh8MT...eature=related
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Old September 30, 2012, 02:53 PM   #28
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Positively.... Before firing a shot I would positively ID the target as not being allowed here before sending a round down range...
But looking at the case in the OP, how would you change the outcome? Ask the kid to take off the mask first? And when he doesn't, what do you do?
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Old September 30, 2012, 03:29 PM   #29
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What was he doing going to the neighbors house with a gun. He should have rang the police. Going to the neighbors house should have being a last resort.
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Old September 30, 2012, 05:32 PM   #30
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Would this situation have a better ending if cops had shot a guy in a ski mask coming at them with a weapon?
It seems quite likely that had the kid seen flashing lights and uniformed officers he might have reacted differently and might not have been shot at all. Even if he were determined to destroy himself and did force a lethal confrontation, the answer is yes, I think it would be a better ending if the cops had shot him instead of his father. Especially for his father.

As far as the original question. It's hard to identify masked persons--that's the point of a mask.

I think that the best lesson this scenario teaches is that you shouldn't force a confrontation if you don't have to. It's one thing to look stupid if you call the cops over a raccoon, but that doesn't compare to shooting someone when you could have avoided it.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:12 PM   #31
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Right, but again this situation involved the father going next door at the request of the frightened neighbor, who was not only known to him but also a relative.

I would have done the same, but would have had the neighbor/sister call 911, too.

This situation was really a no-win for the father.

I am normally one of the choir who say to hole up in a safe place, weapon ready, while keeping open comms with the 911 dispatcher. However, this won't work in all circumstances.

For instance, next spring if all goes well I'll be a first-time father. The baby will have its own room as soon as practical, as that is the advice being given to new parents these days. This means that at some point next year, any bump in the night larger than what a toddler would make will require movement on my part, at least enough to take a position covering the stairs (since our bedroom and the child's will be on the second floor).

Luckily, our house is set up in such a way that I can control a chokepoint.

On the other hand, at some point in the future one of my parents or one of my wife's may end up moving in with us. (We assume this will be the case with the survivor of the first one to pass, but that should still be some years off.)

At that point, we'll have a kid in an upstairs bedroom, and an elderly person downstairs. I will no longer be able to simply stay up at the upper landing to the staircase, if I suspect an intrusion.

Some situations don't lend themselves to calling 911 and sitting still.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:23 PM   #32
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Common sense. Lacking it can get you killed. If in 15 years the father hadn't explained to his son why creeping around in black with your face covered at night is a bad idea then the blame lies on him as well. And at 15 even my dumb [self] knew this was a bad idea. Kid HAD to have been up to no good if you ask me.

Am I just heartless? I really can't feel bad for stupid people.

Everyone I know understands that kicking down my door or breaking a window at my apartment is a REALLY bad decision. I make that clear.

Edit: I'm sure I'll catch flak for this, let the poo flinging begin.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:25 PM   #33
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I am from CT just not that area. I have heard that 2 days before a woman walked in on a robbery in progress and was brutally beaten and raped. So the entire town was on edge
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:29 PM   #34
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I will no longer be able to simply stay up at the upper landing to the staircase, if I suspect an intrusion.
Sure you will. You may not like doing it, but it's still an option.

Just like the father could have stayed inside and told the neighbor/relative to call the police.

It's true that people sometimes do things that are tactically unwise because they feel obligated to do so, but that doesn't eliminate the tactically sound option, it just makes it less attractive to them in the short term.
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Old September 30, 2012, 08:45 PM   #35
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JohnKSa, we have to disagree on this one.

If I hear something downstairs that sounds like a threat, and I know my mother is down there, then staying upstairs and guarding the landing becomes my wife's job. (She has a gun of her own.)

Unfortunately, due to bad knees, etc, there will not be any way to consolidate all loved ones in one part of the house. (My mother and my wife's father have a very hard time with stairs.)

This is a fairly common problem, and one that people might want to consider when laying out their homes.
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Old September 30, 2012, 09:04 PM   #36
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Let me just say this, and I'm inviting a WORLD of poo on myself here but here goes.

OC spray, I've been hit with it to get certified for an armed security job which I ended up not taking. It SUCKS and is almost immediately debilitating. I'm no chump and it brought me to my knees for about 15 minutes. I'd honestly rather be shot or tazed or beaten or blown up, OC is the most miserable experience I can imagine next to having your fingernails ripped out. If you know how to use it right it's 99.999 percent effective. Then again if you're dealing with an individual armed with a gun it's usually better to bring your own. You can never have too many tools at your disposal though.
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Old September 30, 2012, 09:19 PM   #37
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JohnKSa, we have to disagree on this one.
There can't be disagreement. It is certainly an option, even if it's one that you feel you can't avail yourself of. Short of being physically forced to go downstairs, it's clearly an option to remain upstairs.

I can understand why you may feel that you must go downstairs--I'm not even saying that I wouldn't go downstairs if I were in your place. I'm just pointing out that no one is actually forcing you to do so.

Look, when things go sour, you may very well go downstairs after considering the situation. But you should make that decision then, based on the circumstances. It's a mistake to rule out options at this point--especially tactically sound options.
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Old September 30, 2012, 09:49 PM   #38
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If in 15 years the father hadn't explained to his son why creeping around in black with your face covered at night is a bad idea then the blame lies on him as well.
LOL, my father never told me not to do this, and he was a cop until I was 10! Your father took you aside and told you not to do this before you were 15?
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Old September 30, 2012, 10:11 PM   #39
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LOL, my father never told me not to do this, and he was a cop until I was 10! Your father took you aside and told you not to do this before you were 15?
I was told this at one point during my teenage years. Don't remember the timing, exactly. But, yeah, I was told not to sneak around our house, or other people's houses at night, because it's a good way to get yourself shot. It wasn't the exact words, "Don't cover your face, dress up in black, and sneak around our house at night", but it was enough to get my attention.

It could be your dad figured you already had the sense not to do this.
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Old September 30, 2012, 10:23 PM   #40
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Double Naught Spy
LOL, my father never told me not to do this, and he was a cop until I was 10! Your father took you aside and told you not to do this before you were 15?
Yeah. And I didn't need to be told either. Common sense should lead one to the question "What would I do if I had a gun and saw me doing this?"

Edit: ditto what wayneinFL said, by both my father and grandfather
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Old September 30, 2012, 11:58 PM   #41
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I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to.

And I don't consider this a "no-win". The father could have stayed inside and called the police. The "bad-guy" was still outside of the females house.

I'd be interested to see if there were other reports in their neighborhood of a masked prowler.
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Old October 1, 2012, 01:39 AM   #42
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I think more people would be backing this guy up if he had shot a BG that wasn't his flesh and blood but was confirmed to be a serial rapist and sometimes murderer.

Blaming this guy is wrong and basically couch potato monday mrng quarterbacking. He tried to do the right thing. He probably received an extremely frantic phonecall...most women and people know many times these frantic calls are happening while the woman is shot dead. At any rate, one would have to ask the dad what his thoughts were when he pulled the trigger. I guess he feared for his life, but I am sure he is monday mrng quarterbacking it himself. This doesn't change the outcome.
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Old October 1, 2012, 04:23 AM   #43
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I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to
for all we know he was trying to steal the 18pack of michelob he knew was in the fridge & his "bright idea" about the ski mask was to make sure the family didn't recognize him in his 'worst case scenario'.

Quote:
The "bad-guy" was still outside of the females house
I am sure he didn't have all the facts when the incident occured.
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Old October 1, 2012, 05:51 AM   #44
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I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to.
Okay, what was he up to?

Quote:
The "bad-guy" was still outside of the females house
The good guy (step father and brother) was asked by the neighbor sister to investigate a possible burglar (prowler). Being a good brother and taking care of family, he did so. So he was 100% in the right for what he was doing there. He found the prowler who is our bad guy stepson. When that happened, the all black and ski-masked bad guy came at the good guy with a knife. There was a scuffle. The bad guy was killed.
http://www.newstimes.com/policerepor...on-3902162.php

ALL of the legal aspects for self defense are covered. It does not matter that the bad guy was outside the female's house because he posed a threat to the good guy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1925224.html

As for reports of a masked prowler in the neighborhood recently, nothing shows up in the local newspaper's police blotter.
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Old October 1, 2012, 06:10 AM   #45
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A "house gun" should have a light on it.
Enough said in my opinion.
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Old October 1, 2012, 08:09 AM   #46
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I understand what John is saying about 'choices'.

Naturally, most everything we consciously do is done by our own choice to do so.

I also understand that there are circumstances in which I will inject myself into a situation that some may question. If my family is involved and there is an incident the same as the one the OP started this thread over. You can bet I'll be there for that family member(s).

The scenario MLeake referred to with having an elderly relative downstairs. I was in that situation for twelve years with my father and you can bet if an intruder would have got into the house downstairs, I would do what I had to to protect dad.

These ARE 'choices' that I would have made but I don't think they are wrong choices but are more normal choices and I believe most would do the same.

Has it been confirmed that the neighbor was in fact the shooters sister?

If so, under the same 'known' circumstances, I would have done the same as this dad did. Armed myself and headed straight next door to her house. My intentions would have been get into her house and stay with her till LEO arrived or escort her back to my house depending on if my family was there alone and wait on LEO.

Many years ago, the ex and I lived next door to an elderly lady(Mrs. Bishop) in which we became very fond of. At least once a month, in the wee hours of the morning, Mrs.Bishop called our house reporting noises she had heard outside or saw somebody looking in her window or smelled electrical wiring burning, etc.
Mrs. Bishop knew all the local LEO's on a first name bases and I nor LEO ever found a sign of any problem. She spent many nights with us as we figured she just got scared at night.

Whatever her reason for calling, I always asked her if her doors were locked and told her to turn all inside and outside lights on and we did the same before I went over there.
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Old October 1, 2012, 10:42 AM   #47
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The father mistook the urge to "do something" for "do something NOW". Stay inside. Call 911. Say "Suspect Present".

I also bet he didn't head over to her house to enter the door, but to sweep the exterior of the house and find the prowler.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:06 AM   #48
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I think we all have a sneaking suspicion what Jr. was up to.
Quote:
I also bet he didn't head over to her house to enter the door, but to sweep the exterior of the house and find the prowler.

Slopeman,

With respect, we can assume what the boy and dads intentions were all day long but reality is, given the current lack of publicized facts, we don't know the intentions of either.

Last edited by shortwave; October 1, 2012 at 11:12 AM.
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Old October 1, 2012, 04:57 PM   #49
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A "house gun" should have a light on it.
So now we see an illuminated masked person approaching us with a knife. Do our reactions change?
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Old October 1, 2012, 05:50 PM   #50
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there are pros and cons to everything. personally, I don't want the light
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