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Old September 5, 2012, 08:20 AM   #1
TRguy
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Key to surviving a gun fight

I bet this guy rehearsed this scenario 1000 times while doing crossword puzzles

Keep your cool

Draw your firearm

use it

hit your target

Sercurity Guard 1, Thugs 0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgZxj2_p6JU
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Old September 5, 2012, 08:23 AM   #2
Don P
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Better advice yet, in my opinion, avoid the gun fight and no need for worry about winning or losing.
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Old September 5, 2012, 08:27 AM   #3
moxie
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Don P,

How would that guard have avoided the gunfight?
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Old September 5, 2012, 08:32 AM   #4
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Don P when the fight comes to you, you have no choice. You fight or you die.

His job was Security Guard, protecting those patrons that are in the facility and the property of the owner. Not to even mention his own life.
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Old September 5, 2012, 08:45 AM   #5
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Didn't watch the you tube.

Just watched the video, all the in the mind rehearsal cannot prepare you for a gun fight. The only thing that will be the same from one gun fight to another is guns are used , no 2 will be the same. My opinion
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:19 AM   #6
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I tend to agree that this sort of excellent performance is not a matter of going over scenarios in one's head.

It appears that the guard was well training and practiced in the fundamentals: drawing his gun smoothly without wasted motion; delivering accurate fire quickly; moving; and using cover. He apparently was able to perform those mechanical tasks well and without conscious thought and was thus able to focus his attention on the situation as it unfolded and make good choices about how he responded.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:21 AM   #7
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Don,

Did you really just say that if/when something bad happens, the guy who never even thought about it before will do better than someone who has thought things through beforehand?

I can't agree.

I think the guy who who knows what he is willing (and more important, not willing) to do has an advantage. You don't get that level of self knowledge without some careful thinking.

I think a guy who habitually looks with "smart eyes" at the area around him, everywhere he goes, has an advantage. A guy with smart eyes looks for alternate ways out whenever he enters an unfamiliar building (as a firefighter how helpful that little habit can be!). He knows -- because he thinks about it ahead of time! -- which direction he will turn if danger comes in the front door. And that means he has a time and decision making advantage over the guy who was caught flat-footed, having never thought about such a thing before.

I also think that a person who is doggedly determined never to learn from the experiences of others is making a mistake.

Frank,

I'd be willing to bet any amount of money you're willing to name that this security guard had pictured this same scenario many times as he sat there at his station facing the front door -- that he had already decided that if a bad guy came in the door, he would draw while standing, that he would move and keep moving while using the podium for cover/concealment, that he would move into the hallway to his left as soon as he could.

He's facing the front door because it's the most likely direction danger will come from. Do you really, really think he'd never pictured trouble coming from that direction? Or that he hadn't already decided what he would do about it if it did?

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Old September 5, 2012, 09:28 AM   #8
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pax is absolutely spot on.

In fact, I feel I really have to amend the first sentence of my post above to read: I tend to agree that this sort of excellent performance is not solely a matter of going over scenarios in one's head.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:32 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
Frank,

I'd be willing to bet any amount of money you're willing to name that this security guard had pictured this same scenario many times as he sat there at his station facing the front door -- ...
Kathy, I agree and have offered an amendment to the first sentence of my previous response.

And I think you'd probably agree that the security guard was also well grounded in the mechanical fundamentals.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:33 AM   #10
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Frank,

With that amendment, I believe you & I are in vehement agreement. Because you know I also strongly agree with you that just going over the pictures in your head does not buy you the physical skills you need to carry out your plan. Also, people who aren't well-practiced in those physical skills tend to have unrealistic ideas about what they will be able to do, and to make unrealistic plans based on that.

Need both...

pax

ETA: Simulposts are fun!
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Old September 5, 2012, 10:13 AM   #11
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Using mental imagery of a well practiced motor skill activates the same pathways as the motor skill actually uses. You can actually detect muscle twitches in the systems to be used in the full action.

Thus, you need the learn the motor skill and practice it to move it to automaticity. Then mental rehearsal keeps the system primed and 'lubricated' so to speak.
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Old September 5, 2012, 10:15 AM   #12
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That's interesting, Glenn. Do you know how much practice becomes "well practiced" and if the link between the motor skill and mental imagery remains intact if the skill is not practiced to the same level after the link is established?
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Old September 5, 2012, 10:30 AM   #13
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Most of my adult life was spent in LE or the Military (or both at the same time).

All during that time, I played the "what if" games in my head. Every call I got, while responding it was "what if".

In walking down the jungle trail it was "what if".

Add to the What if, tons and tons of good solid practice will put you ahead of the game every time.

As to AVOIDING A FIGHT. Of course thats best. But you can avoid it without avoiding it.

I know that sounds like "Giant Shrimp", but think about it. You cannot avoid everything, every place. In LE you are sent to that place that should be avoided. In public CC, you can't avoid going to the ATM, you can't avoid stopping at a traffic light, you can't avoid setting home watching TV.

But you can avoid the confrontation in such areas. If you have good training, get some good solid practice, and play the "what if game" you're going to build confidence in your abilities to protect your self.

That confidence is going to be projected to others. Bandits pray on the weak, they will not go after one who projects confidence, who appears ready.

Take an experienced police officer. Spent his career on the street and has the experience and knowledge to deal with the street. Confidence is written all over his face and body language. Now compare the rookie, just turned loose from his FTO, he's going to be nervous and un-sure, the lack of confidence is going to be projected in his body language.

As a bad guy, ask your self which you would tackle and which you would avoid.

So you can avoid confrontations without having to live in a bubble.
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Old September 5, 2012, 10:52 AM   #14
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I agree with most here, and especially Frank.

This man did not perform as I would expect from most security guards. If anyone has seen the video of the shooting at the Empire State Building, those officers were not nearly as calm and collected as this security guard was.

This guard's mechanics and fundamentals; his draw, his control of the pistol, using cover, and shooting while on the move. You can also see at the end, even though he witnessed the three exit the building, he moved forward to make sure that no criminals were hiding behind the desk and he used the cover that he had to his advantage.

His level of training was evident from the very beginning. His draw was smooth and he sidestepped to his strong side which allowed him to have his right foot planted in order to have a good base to fire an accurate first shot from. From there he kept a good shooting platform and stance (even when moving), in the face multiple armed assailants.

All in all, a job very well done by this security guard.

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Old September 5, 2012, 11:31 AM   #15
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From Don P:
Quote:
Better advice yet, in my opinion, avoid the gun fight and no need for worry about winning or losing.
And a reasonable response:
Quote:
How would that guard have avoided the gunfight?
While it doesn't apply to the guard (for obvious reasons) this is part of my strategic (highest) level of self defense. I'm not a security guard. Or anything else that is likely, in the normal course of my duties, to involve me in a gun fight.

I also live and work in an area that is not high risk, and I don't hang out with people who - by what they do or who they are - increase the risk.

I'm not being critical. It's just that my philosophy (which no one has to follow) is that using a firearm is the last of many layers of decisions that I make.
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Old September 5, 2012, 11:57 AM   #16
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Survival of any kind is about the same general things:
  1. Preparation
  2. Training - ongoing, ever changing and challenging
  3. Situational Awareness - if you are unaware you have little chance regardless of all other factors.
  4. Avoidance of Risk
  5. Conservation of energy - in this case acting as rapidly as possible to end the situation.
  6. Luck that the above five items allows you to take advantage of. Might also be called environmental advantage but often there isnt alot you can do to affect this because you cant say when most situations will occur other than in general terms (night, day, club, alley, etc) basically being in a position or situation that allows you to get a shot off accurately and rapidly or allows you to escape the situation or protects you in some way.
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Old September 5, 2012, 11:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
Key to surviving a gun fight
The key to surviving a gunfight is to not get shot.

Neat video of a shooting, but no gunfight occurred. No shots were fired by the bad guys. A potential gunfight was stopped and certainly a robbery was stopped, but no gunfight occurred. The would-be robbers ran in, got blasted at by the guard, turned tail, at least one robber was hit, and all three left the building, though the 3rd was moving slow. No reports that the would-be robbers fired a single shot.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/1-i...z/-/index.html

Quick reactions? Sure. Of course, the guard may have seen activity outside and been on edge. He still did a good job.

The guy ran out of his shoes? Sure, but once again, things aren't quite as indicated. The shoes weren't even laced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ju2CsUSHg (see 0:24 in video)
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Old September 5, 2012, 12:02 PM   #18
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If you have to stand guard in a less than friendly environment, it's only natural to do a little analysis as to where to jump. The draw was smooth, certainly less than 1.5 seconds, but not a fast draw, to a sight picture and shoot.
Some thought, a little training, some practice, led to a happy outcome.
The man is not a displaced Delta operator, but still an inspiration to practice.
I bet the civilians that were there thank God for that man's life.
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Old September 5, 2012, 12:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
but no gunfight occurred.
There was a gun fight. In a knife fight, do both knives have to stab or cut in order for a knife fight to occur? No

Just because only one person had the skill, calmness, and diligence to employ his firearm at hand doesn't negate it was a gun fight. The thugs were caught off guard and were never mentally or physically able to employ their firearm. If it is me I don't want to exchange gunfire in a gun fight. I want him to hear nothing before rounds start impacting their head, torso, whatever I hit.

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Old September 5, 2012, 12:40 PM   #20
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My best advice to surviving a gun fight is as follows:

Don't get shot.
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Old September 5, 2012, 12:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Neat video of a shooting, but no gunfight occurred.
Yes, a gunfight did occur. Multiple parties do not have to engage each other for it to be a gunfight. If bullets fly at a person, a gunfight has occurred.

Was it a shootout? No.
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Old September 5, 2012, 01:08 PM   #22
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Both sides don't need to fire a gun for it to be a gunfight. In fact, if you get off your shot(s) before the other guy, and stop him, you have won the gunfight. What else could you call it? In fact this IS the best of all outcomes to a gunfight.

Automaticity! This alone was worth the price of admission. Love it.

Training and mental rehearsal (visualization) are the keys to successful performance, whether it be sports or gunfighting. The guy in the video obviously had both, and was a very cool customer, IMO.
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Old September 5, 2012, 01:45 PM   #23
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Brian, off the top of my head - I don't know the loss rate for motor skill imagery effectivness. I could hit the databases when I get a free moment.

Might be hard to study in the lab.
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Old September 5, 2012, 03:34 PM   #24
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It was a defensive shooting - nothing more unless somebody comes up with information that the bad guys also fired. The distinction between a shooting has been made clear to me by several firearms instructors such as Ken Hackathorn.

Quote:
He continued by reminding us that there are two times when a firearm is used in the real world: Shootings and Gunfights.

"They aren't the same," our mentor explained. "In a Shooting only one person fires a gun and the average round count is one to three shots. However, a Gunfight involves multiple parties all firing guns and the average number of shots fired is whatever happens to be in the gun."
http://www.shootingwire.com/features/225864
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Old September 5, 2012, 03:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNS
It was a defensive shooting - nothing more unless somebody comes up with information that the bad guys also fired. The distinction between a shooting has been made clear to me by several firearms instructors such as Ken Hackathorn.
Hard to argue with that.
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