The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 5, 2012, 12:03 AM   #101
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
Will you at least fire in the air? Not to be a hero, just to be a responsible armed citizen.
So...in response to a person randomly shooting behind them, you would suggest that shooting into the air is a valid option? That seems to be the opposite of responsible.
sigcurious is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:23 AM   #102
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,232
Quote:
Random shootings happen where everyone present is the target. Not trying to inspire any ideas, But if a shooter did decidecide to elevate and shoot from a distance, he would get more victims, the mindset of going off of what has happened will affect your reaction to what could happen. Some whackjobs are very well trained. And some thugs were once soldiers, marines, and even cops! I've seen kids that can shoot very well. And how is any training, whether it be long or short shots, a waste? Even you said the longshots you took at 200yds was fun.
If he's randomly shooting from a distance your best bet is duck and run. Unless your concealed carry is a Remington 30-06, you are distinctly out gunned with a mere pistol.

As noted I have no problem with people doing distance shooting for fun. But thinking you're good to trade fire at range it tactically and legally inprudent.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:28 AM   #103
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,232
Quote:
To take cover, run, escape is reasonable and when possible should be part of any good defense. Tacticians in all ages have shown that it's better avoid a fight when you can and from the distances mentioned I would choose flight over fight.

I have meet lots of over zealous gun carrying persons that really think being in a gun fight would be cool afternoon. I say let the police handle it. Would I pull my gun and fire at a bad guy attacking me hell yeah; bad guy fleeing and being shoot in the back where I live may be murder. I am confident enough with my weapon that I could stop a threat or to be clear hit what I aim at and I would pray the if in this dreaded scenario the threat would be down stopped or slowed enough for me to escape, regroup, and call for help.

To me the bad guy starts with the advavtage he knows what he came to do, and if given a chance to retreat, take cover, regroup, get more help that's my choice, yours is no doubt different.
Agreed. Odds are extremly low that it will be just me-but I will be protecting a family member I value more than myself. If we can't run for whatever reason then a CC is better than me just charging the person, which would be what I would have to do if I didn't have the CC.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:04 AM   #104
Single Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Location: N.C.
Posts: 1,522
As usual, I'm late for the discussion, so I'll just put in my 2 cents for the OP: I personally only use full-size guns for CCW. To me, small guns are for BUG use only. I have no problem concealing a full-size weapon. In my case, I alternate between a Ruger P-90 .45 and another Ruger, a 4" stainless GP-100 .357 Magnum. Both disappear completely in an IWB rig underneath an un-tucked shirt. The way I see it, since fine motor skills tend to diminish under the stress of a gunfight, handling a tiny gun with correspondingly tiny controls would be pretty difficult compared to a full-sized piece. Besides, in my opinion, when it comes to certain things, like steaks, paychecks, locomotives, women, and guns..bigger is better!
__________________
Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."
Single Six is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:07 AM   #105
robertsig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 224
Put me in the camp of only needing a gun to shoot up to 10 yards away. Any more than that and you'll need a better lawyer. I like my Kahr.
robertsig is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:12 AM   #106
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,994
Quote:
In the military there's a thing called fire control.
The military also issues rifles for this purpose. If you think adding an inch to the barrel to your CCW pistol is going to swing the tide in your favor and all of a sudden gives you firepower superiority your thinking is probably gonna get you in trouble, your still very much outgunned against any longarm.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 08:31 AM   #107
Single Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Location: N.C.
Posts: 1,522
I agree with mavracer, however I'll point out that there can be exceptions to any and every rule. Case in point: The early 1990s incident involving a nut with an AK vs. a USAF Security Forces member, who was armed only with a 9mm Beretta. The aforementioned lunatic had been gleefully engaging in mass murder at a military base when he was intercepted by the SF man. From a distance of about 70 yards, the SF man used his issued M9 to cut down his rifle-armed adversary, who was actively shooting at him at the time. The good guy survived unscathed, the murderer was not so lucky.
__________________
Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."
Single Six is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 09:00 AM   #108
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,232
I'm not a cop. Thats not an SD example.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 09:01 AM   #109
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
Quote:
your still very much outgunned against any longarm.
Of course! What was that Clint said? The only reason we fight with a pistol is to get back to the rifle that we shouldn't have laid down in the first place...

So the pistol is sort of a stand in compact rifle in effect. Even a full size pistol is very very compact when compared to a rifle. So why handicap yourself with a micro pistol?

It's not about needing to shoot past 10 yds, it's about ease of effective use. It's easier to get effective hits at 10 yds or less with a bigger pistol than it is with a smaller pistol. It's easier to shoot faster with a bigger pistol than a smaller pistol.

I can shoot twice as fast with my 5" 1911 than I can with my j frame. (effectively). I'm not slamming on you snubby guys, if you can shoot fast and accurate with your snubby, wonderful! I can not. But I can shoot my 911 better with one hand fast than I can those infernal snubs with two hands.
Or so it seems to me.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 09:17 AM   #110
Single Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Location: N.C.
Posts: 1,522
Zincwarrior: True enough, but the point I was trying to make is that while a pistol is a pretty rotten weapon to take to a rifle fight, the handgunner can, in certain circumstances, still prevail. Besides, while it's true that the example I gave was more of an LE situation, the fact remains that the rifle-toting BG was shooting at the SF guy. So, while the SF man was, first and foremost, trying to stop a mass murderer, he was also at the same time defending himself. So, at least in one respect, this was an SD situation as well.
__________________
Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."
Single Six is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 11:49 AM   #111
TennJed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2010
Posts: 1,523
Fullsize you talk about being a good gun owner and responsible citizen, yet you talk about shooting out tires and shooting randomly in the air. Are you using magic bullets that do not fall to the ground? No offense, but I hope new gun owners who might be reading this realize what it really means to be a good gun owner and responsible citizen. Real like is not a video game. Military people use rifles to control situations. Carrying a 5" handgun instead of a 3" handgun is not putting you in SEAL mode
TennJed is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 11:54 AM   #112
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,232
Quote:
Quote:
your still very much outgunned against any longarm.

Of course! What was that Clint said? The only reason we fight with a pistol is to get back to the rifle that we shouldn't have laid down in the first place...

So the pistol is sort of a stand in compact rifle in effect. Even a full size pistol is very very compact when compared to a rifle. So why handicap yourself with a micro pistol?

It's not about needing to shoot past 10 yds, it's about ease of effective use. It's easier to get effective hits at 10 yds or less with a bigger pistol than it is with a smaller pistol. It's easier to shoot faster with a bigger pistol than a smaller pistol.

I can shoot twice as fast with my 5" 1911 than I can with my j frame. (effectively). I'm not slamming on you snubby guys, if you can shoot fast and accurate with your snubby, wonderful! I can not. But I can shoot my 911 better with one hand fast than I can those infernal snubs with two hands.
Or so it seems to me.
Here's the problem.
You can't wear a full size 1911 in a dress shirt.
You can theoretically wear a full size 1911 in shorts and light T shirt in August in Texas.

If your locale and lifestyle permits you to carry a full size pistol, then excellent. For other people, conditions vary. One should carry what they can comfortably carry and confortably 24/7. That may be one pistol. It may be sveral different pistols.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 11:56 AM   #113
rodeo roy
Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2012
Posts: 48
fullsize

I am a law abiding citizen and where I live the law on CC is clear; pull and use your weapon to stop a person or persons directly engaged in attacking you, not to protect your property nor persons around you. We all know and me included we would break that law in the case of loved ones or in the case of a home invasion while your in your home.

Pulling your gun firing in the air would get my permit revoked and may bring a felony, it's not allowed here, neither can I move to act on behalf of the good of public saftey or as was stated "... a resoponsilbe gun owner..."; would I do something if I could, I don't know if I would give up my "safe" position of cover to get into the fight; if I did it would be under a very narrow circumstances.

My weapon is for my protection and I would extend that to my family, but if a bad guy wants my shiny new Silverado Z71 that I worked hard for and he got the drop on me (meaning his gun in hand pointed at me, mine still holstered) then I'm giving up the truck, they still make trucks, but my life should not end trying to out draw this bad guy. If he lowers the gun, drops his head, or is otherwise distracted where I have a second to get my gun on target, it's on, and none of that can happen from more than 10ft-15ft away.

Everytime we hear about a mass shooting we also hear least I have heard persons saying if I was there I woulda pulled my glock, my sig, whatever and did this or that, but having been on the other end of a gun barrel at close range from a car jacker, it unfolds quickly and in my case I was not carrying at the time and had I been I was seated in a car behind the wheel, not the ideal place to unholster a gun and get it on target and fire in the midst of the panic of seeing a gun pointed at me. So when persons say what they would do I just counter and say I hope you never have to find out cause you really don't know what you will do, as a gun carrier or not.
rodeo roy is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 12:28 PM   #114
fullsize only
Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2012
Posts: 45
Respond if the law permits. Have the weapon with you that you shoot best, for me, its a fullsize handgun. To me they give you the widest range of a fughting chance. If you are already drawn on, I dont advise going out in a blaze of glory.
fullsize only is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 01:23 PM   #115
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
Quote:
You can't wear a full size 1911 in a dress shirt.
I agree with you here. I'm in the service industry and shirt tails are fine. But of course, the paper shufflers could wear a suit jacket...
Edward429451 is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 01:34 PM   #116
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
You can't wear a full size 1911 in a dress shirt.


False. Very false generalization.

I wear a full sized 1911 in a dress shirt easily. I can wear a Glock 21 in a dress shirt easily.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 02:13 PM   #117
jsiberians
Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2012
Posts: 15
My choice for CCW was pretty easy I went for the LC9 sub comp. NYS limits a mag. to 10 shots anyway. So I went for comfort,reliability and accuracy.
My practice drills are from 5'-30' SD and 50' for target.
Chances are my SD needs will be in the 5-30ft range and in home 30ft will be a stretch.
I agree with jimbob86

Last edited by jsiberians; October 5, 2012 at 02:27 PM.
jsiberians is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 02:56 PM   #118
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,994
Quote:
So the pistol is sort of a stand in compact rifle in effect. Even a full size pistol is very very compact when compared to a rifle. So why handicap yourself with a micro pistol?
Because day in and day out I've found pocket carry works best for ME.
Quote:
I can shoot twice as fast with my 5" 1911 than I can with my j frame. (effectively). I'm not slamming on you snubby guys, if you can shoot fast and accurate with your snubby, wonderful! I can not. But I can shoot my 911 better with one hand fast than I can those infernal snubs with two hands.
Or so it seems to me.
I shoot a snub very well,but it did take a while for me to get there. I'll also say for me there is damn little difference between a 4" and 5" barreled auto or between a 3" and 4" revolver.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 03:02 PM   #119
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,232
Quote:
Quote:
You can't wear a full size 1911 in a dress shirt.



False. Very false generalization.

I wear a full sized 1911 in a dress shirt easily. I can wear a Glock 21 in a dress shirt easily.
A tucked in dress shirt? OK.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 03:06 PM   #120
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,232
Quote:
I shoot a snub very well,but it did take a while for me to get there. I'll also say for me there is damn little difference between a 4" and 5" barreled auto or between a 3" and 4" revolver.
Depending on the pistol I agree with you. I know one handed there is almost no difference between my M&Pc and my regular M&P. Indeed, there is only about an ounce or so difference between the two.

A short aluminum 45 might be a good bit different though-say 25 ounces vs. 35 ounces for a full size.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 03:29 PM   #121
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior View Post
A tucked in dress shirt? OK.
oops. Sorry brother, didn't know "tucked in" was there. Yeah
..that's a no no. Lol.

SIG 1911 XO / SA 1911 custom / Colt Gold Cup / Colt 70 Series / SIG P226 e2 / Browning High-power / Walther PPQ / G34 / G19 / G21 / G22 / S&W M-19 / Hk USP 40 / Rem 870 / Rock R. AR-15

sent from my Samsung Galaxy SII
Constantine is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 04:03 PM   #122
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2012
Posts: 750
I carry a Sig P220R everyday. Somedays I carry IWB (primarily)others OWB. I make sure it is as concealed as possible, but it has still probably been spotted a time or two. Usually this is only by someone who knows what to look for.
__________________
" The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to
keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect
themselves against tyranny in Government.
..." - Thomas Jefferson
CharlieDeltaJuliet is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 06:16 PM   #123
fullsize only
Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2012
Posts: 45
to sigcurious, tennjed, and rodeo roy

There are situation where shooting out a tire is legal, maybe not a robber, but in certain situations. And shooting a warning shot in the air DURING a crime in progress not just for fun, is justifiable. And as for the bullet coming down, myth busters killed that one. People, there are situations where all of these actions are justifiable, if done With a crime in progress. I don't know where you live, but in arkansas, during a violent crime all of the so called irresponsible actions that you speak of, is justifable during a crime in progress. Research your laws, it may be legal for you to stop a violent act as well. And not just on yourself.
fullsize only is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:17 PM   #124
TennJed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2010
Posts: 1,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by fullsize only View Post
And shooting a warning shot in the air DURING a crime in progress not just for fun, is justifiable. And as for the bullet coming down, myth busters killed that one.
You are wrong about mythbusters. PLEASE DO NOT SHOOT INTO THE AIR. Please be careful and use good judgement

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode50

Quote:
In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured. To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time.
TennJed is offline  
Old October 5, 2012, 07:50 PM   #125
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
5-2-607 covers use of deadly force in AR, the situations you propose go beyond the scope of the law as written in almost every conceivable variation of the situations your propose. Even for the possible exceptions, due to the text of the law, does not mean it's ok. The second part of the law is case law, I would be greatly surprised if you found some case law regarding the shooting of a retreating person firing blindly behind them or shooting out of tires that says it's A-OK as you seem to believe.

There is probably some case law on warning shots and possibly even specifically between say discharging into the ground or the air. However nothing in AR law about use of deadly force/force specifically covers warning shots, so if there's some other portion of the law that specifically allows them please cite it.
sigcurious is offline  
Reply

Tags
shoot to kill , shoot to live >

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15755 seconds with 7 queries