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Old October 2, 2012, 08:29 PM   #76
allaroundhunter
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Long shots are a useful part of "gun-fu". What about situations when a robber is retreating and you take a shot at his tires. Or a loose pitbull is charging one of your children, Or you get caught in a situation when you get the "opportunity " to take down a cowardly gun man shooting at innocent people.
If a robber is retreating, I will not take a shot at his tires, even though in Texas it *might* be perfectly justified.

If a pit bull is charging one of my children? If my child is 50 yards away from me then I should be more worried about a kidnapper than a pit bull. (And good luck hitting a dog running at 50 yards with a pistol regardless of who it is chasing; I have had enough trouble hitting them with a Glock 19 at 7 yards when they were charging me).

As to taking down a cowardly man shooting innocent people? That one is possible, but one would have to be very careful of the surroundings of their target. Recently a citizen saved a police officer who was in a gunfight with an armed criminal who had just shot and killed his neighbors and was lying in wait for the police response.... The citizen hit the criminal from 160 someodd yards with a .357 mag.....And then hit him 4 more times to keep him from outgunning the officer. That is impressive.

http://deadlinelive.info/2012/08/07/...with-a-pistol/

Last edited by allaroundhunter; October 2, 2012 at 10:00 PM. Reason: didn't realize how rude that came across...
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Old October 2, 2012, 08:50 PM   #77
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All the numbers and yards are generally speaking. I agree, a moving target at 50yds with a pistol is hard. My shooting buddies and I have a remote control monster truck that we re enforced with sheet metal. What we do is attach air filled balloons on a 2ft string and attempt to shoot the balloon. Its very hard!!!! I live on thr outskirts of town and my family shares a nice piece of land so fifty yds away for my kids isn't uncommon. All situations are far fetched but its just to spark the what I want to have thought process. I know most justifiable cases are within 15ft. But somethings occur that are uncommon.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:40 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by fullsize only View Post
No verifiable stories, Just life, war stories fron cop friends,a few military experiences, not any links or anything verifiable. Sorry boss, I would love to be able to provide you the info, but it seems like you're a see it to believe it kind of guy. But take the Colorado shooting, columbine, jonesboro, Arizona shooting for example. Or the many college campus or nightclub shootings as reference.
Unless these street thugs are putting an any range time with their kimber, sig's, and glocks they are most likely not hitting what they are aiming at anyway. Most sensible people will use that to leave the situation. Having a long range gunfight with street thugs is not a smart thing to do for the safety of anyone. Since you seem concerned with protecting citizens have you considered military or law enforcement?
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:58 PM   #79
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Balloons tied to an R/C truck! AWESOME idea!!
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Old October 2, 2012, 10:47 PM   #80
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Handguns for everyday carry range in size from an NAA .22 to a 5" (or even longer) .44 Mag. There are many variables that affect the choice of a carry gun on a daily basis, e.g., weather and employment, as well as local social environment, which lead to choices such an an LCP, light Ruger or S&W .38 or .357, 1911, or a 9mm ranging from tiny to double stack. Carry what works in the circumstances.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:18 PM   #81
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I was in the air force, 2 yrs aircraft mechanics, 2 yrs tacp. Tacp is basically an airman attached to an army or marine unit as a soldier responsible for coordinating close air support. I did search and seizure missions with the 82nd and the 1st expeditionary marines, I suffered a shoulder injury which was not combat related, but it did kill my chances of being a a cop because I will more than likely reinjure myself detaining a large aggressive person. I'm still a bad SOB but I can't go around knocking everyone that doesn't want to go quietly. So being a responsible armed citizen and boxing coach for troubled youth is all I can do for my country and community.
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Old October 2, 2012, 11:59 PM   #82
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Fullsize

Your point is that you want & prefer a fullsize weapon in order to get the most out of the ammo you carry for it. That's not a bad thing and I can agree with the logic. However, remember that +P ammo was invented to give snub .38's the same energy as a full size .38 using standard velocity ammo. Today we see people using +P in both small and full sized guns.

My point was that no matter which weapon you select to carry, you should be able to score COM shots at 25 yards. That's because you never know what kind of situation you'll be forced into when the elephant looms.

I don't recall the originator of the saying about gunfights, but from conversations with several survivors, it's true. The saying is
The gunfight you find yourself in will not resemble any scenario you've ever trained for.

Set your priorities.
1. Only hits count. Carry the gun you shoot the best.
2. Carry the most reliable gun you can. You may need more than 1 shot.
3. Ammo & Guns are a system. Never carry an untested combination.
4. Chose a cartridge that will do the job, ideally it begins with a 4.
5. Select the best quality gear for the job you can afford & keep them in good order.
6. Have a plan. Have several. Realize that plans seldom survive the first few seconds of reality!
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Old October 3, 2012, 07:28 AM   #83
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I totally agree BillCA. You summed it up. I like everything you said. Maybe sharing my long shot plan has raised questions, but I hope it opens up a difference in peoples training. To me, indoor ranges have their purpose, but its like shooting nothing but free throws, its not enough. I say train for everything, even for what may never happen, as long as its possible.

Last edited by fullsize only; October 3, 2012 at 07:37 AM.
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Old October 3, 2012, 02:43 PM   #84
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Quote:
Set your priorities.
1. Only hits count. Carry the gun you shoot the best.
2. Carry the most reliable gun you can. You may need more than 1 shot.
3. Ammo & Guns are a system. Never carry an untested combination.
4. Chose a cartridge that will do the job, ideally it begins with a 4.
5. Select the best quality gear for the job you can afford & keep them in good order.
6. Have a plan. Have several. Realize that plans seldom survive the first few seconds of reality!

Perfect!
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Old October 4, 2012, 05:37 AM   #85
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Fullsize,

Training should focus on the most probable events and circumstances. Those will generally be close-quarters engagements and probably half will be in low-light conditions. But we should not neglect training for some of the less-likely (but still probable) situations, like a 25 or even a 50 yard shot.

Of course, the likelihood that you'll ever use such long range shots is very low. Statistics tell us so.

My early training was in the 70's. Service revolvers were still king in our holsters and with only 6 rounds, accuracy was paramount. (Speed is fine, accuracy is final!) But during that time we were also pushed to shoot accurately at 50 yards. We should push ourselves to practice at 50 yards today too, for much the same reasons.¹

In the 70's, there were a number of "radical groups" and several were infamous for attacking police using rifles. They recognized that a handgun is a great tool "up close" but not so good at 50-75 yards. I recall the instructor's words;
Fifty yards for a rifle is like 10 yards with your revolver. It's almost hard to miss someone. But fifty yards is still within range of your weapon, IF you learn to shoot it properly.

Another point made by our instructors was that the further you can shoot accurately, the easier it will be to learn to shoot close up. Those long shots require you to practice good habits - aiming, breathing, squeezing the trigger and follow through.

Today, between the gangs, the whackjobs and potential terrorism, it's possible that you find yourself in a situation where a 50 yard shot doesn't seem unreasonable. Inside a multi-story shopping mall, a movie theater parking lot, in a parking garage, perhaps. At least knowing that you can make the shot helps increase your options for survival.


¹ With weapons appropriate to the task. No one expects you to take 50 yard shots with a Kel-Tec .32 or a .380 pistol.
² Oddly enough, in two large malls here, the food courts are 50 yards wide.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:08 AM   #86
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Today, between the gangs, the whackjobs and potential terrorism, it's possible that you find yourself in a situation where a 50 yard shot doesn't seem unreasonable. Inside a multi-story shopping mall,
***You should be running. Unless they’ve gone shopping mall ninja and understand the concept of defilade, its better for you to be gone. Also, please find me an instance of this, ever.

a movie theater parking lot,
***How on earth is someone popping effective rounds at you in a parking lot from 50 yards? It must be an empty parking lot. Again, to quote the movide Dodgeball “duck, dodge, duck, dodge, duck”
in a parking garage, perhaps.
***Again, it must parking garage. Absent being the President who exactly is taking a shot at YOU at 50 yards?

At least knowing that you can make the shot helps increase your options for survival.
***NO it means you’re wasting valuable training time on nonsense.

Back in ancient times when I was younger we would have fun shooting at rocks at 200 yards with revolvers (44s and 45 long colts). It was fun and you could be effective at it. But it had no consequence in a real world scenario.


I'm trying to contemplate the self defense situation where one legally defends oneself in a 50 yard shootout with someone.

Last edited by zincwarrior; October 4, 2012 at 06:14 AM.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:49 AM   #87
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Besides preparing for the less likely situations, long-range practice can be FUN! Done safely and in perspective, practicing unusual drills or shots give practice the variety and novelty to keep it from being boring repetition, and easy to put off.

50-yd scenarios? Never say never. Just sayin'...
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Old October 4, 2012, 07:45 AM   #88
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I am so glad that someone who actually has experience, real training, and a mindset of defending more than THEMSEs has spoken. You come from the times my father came up in and he says the same. What's likely to happen doesn't mean the unlikely won't. It seems that the guys with experience beyond the shooting range know what I mean, and the magazine readers can't realize the idea that the longshot is possible, and being prepared for it will not only will make you a better shot in the "statistically common ranges" it will also make you more prepared armed citizen instead of a running armed citizen, or should I say an armed victim.
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Old October 4, 2012, 08:03 AM   #89
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Random shootings happen where everyone present is the target. Not trying to inspire any ideas, But if a shooter did decidecide to elevate and shoot from a distance, he would get more victims, the mindset of going off of what has happened will affect your reaction to what could happen. Some whackjobs are very well trained. And some thugs were once soldiers, marines, and even cops! I've seen kids that can shoot very well. And how is any training, whether it be long or short shots, a waste? Even you said the longshots you took at 200yds was fun.
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Old October 4, 2012, 08:14 AM   #90
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Dunno about 50 yards, but 1/2 way across the Von Maur (Westroads Mall, Omaha) department store is a lot closer to 40 yards than it is to 7......

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Old October 4, 2012, 10:51 AM   #91
allaroundhunter
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Quote:
Set your priorities.
1. Only hits count. Carry the gun you shoot the best.
2. Carry the most reliable gun you can. You may need more than 1 shot.
3. Ammo & Guns are a system. Never carry an untested combination.
4. Chose a cartridge that will do the job, ideally it begins with a 4.
5. Select the best quality gear for the job you can afford & keep them in good order.
6. Have a plan. Have several. Realize that plans seldom survive the first few seconds of reality!

....and out comes the popcorn....
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Old October 4, 2012, 11:25 AM   #92
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To be honest I don't understand why someone would carry a G26 or XD sub compact IWB to me a G19 or XD duty is just as easy to carry IWB. I like the CCO 1911 concept Commander slide Officer gripframe. Maybe a G17c a 17 length slide with a 19 frame I've heard people doing similar conversions. I have a Kahr CW45 that I cut down for PM mags now it works as a pocket carry in some of my jeans.
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Old October 4, 2012, 04:54 PM   #93
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zincwarrior stated the exact thing that to do as part of a self defense stratagy, RUN! If I get off enough shots 2-3 or whatever then I for one am getting away from the scene quickly.

Rifles, elevation, pyscho bent on murder, etc. is more than I am ready to take on. Let the trained swat team handle this. I want to protect myself in a real life, up close, shoot or die situation and I train myself for that. Part of my training is and has always been (due to where I live) to recognize danger, and steer clear. The bad guy may be yards away shooting toward me, but for me rather than shoot back, escape is the proper defense. Carrying a gun does not inspire me to want to be a hero or make me invicable or stupid,

Consider this 20 murders in 10 days, 19 by gun, 1 by knife, guess how many were more than 12 feet away, guess how many by a retreating bad guy. ZERO. Stuff happens, but 50 yards, not so much
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Old October 4, 2012, 05:00 PM   #94
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If I get off enough shots 2-3 or whatever then I for one am getting away from the scene quickly.
If you get off "2-3 or whatever" shots, then you better not be running away from the scene unless you have failed to neutralize the threat. And even then, you better be on the phone with 911 explaining what you are doing and that you need some serious police help.

You run to avoid having to shoot. Once you have had to shoot, running is 99% of the time off of the table of options available to you.

Quote:
The bad guy may be yards away shooting toward me, but for me rather than shoot back, escape is the proper defense. Carrying a gun does not inspire me to want to be a hero or make me invicable or stupid
He is yards away shooting at you and you want to run?.... I'm sorry, but that is a losing proposition in and of itself. That is the epitome of the situation in which you are expected to return fire and find cover. It would not make you the "hero" to return fire, it would mean that you have some common sense. Running in that situation would be the stupid choice.
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Old October 4, 2012, 05:06 PM   #95
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Fullsized here.

I am fond of the 5" 1911 and yeah, I have to dress around the gun but that's ok because that's how I dress anyway. The thinness of it makes it possible and the long barrel is IWB so no problem there.

I haven't been in too many tense situations, but I understand than when it does happen that fine motor control goes out the window and at that point a larger pistol that is easy to shoot would be better than a compact gun.

The 1911 is such a gun. It has largish controls and sights and would be easier to shoot under stress than a similar compact pistol. I've considered going to an Officers model (3.5") but I would have a 5" barrel installed and perhaps even port the end of it, The butt is the hardest part to conceal anyway and one less round would not make the difference to the outcome anyway.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:12 PM   #96
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I respect your decision. Let's just say having a pistol does not make me feell invincible, I ve seen what bullets do to people so being a hero has nothing to do with it. Recognizing danger is paramount so that's good. But saying you won't get in a situation or you'll see it coming or determining how far it will be is delusional. You're probably a guy who thought 9/11 or the oklahoma city issue wouldn't happen. Understand, gun range owners will push the 12ft probability to keep you spending your money at their ranges. But you call people stupid for choosing to take the shot instead of taking cover. You hurt my feelings roy. Just kidding. Seriously, the long shot is nothing more but a ful test of your shooting mechanics, a fullsize pistol goves you the option to take out a threat before it gets within 12 ft. Getting shot at, 50yds doesnt seem that far away. I bet the police officer that was saved by the man who took a 165 yd shot with a .357 is glad somebody trains beyond 12 ft. or however far you shoot.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:17 PM   #97
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I carry a glock 17 or a full size 1911 every day. I think that if you can carry a full size gun, you should. I know that isnt realistic for a lot of people but it works for me.
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Old October 4, 2012, 06:34 PM   #98
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Fullsize, I will say this. You don't need a fullsize pistol to be accurate at distance. Hickock45 makes shots on a gong that is 80 yards away with subcompact pistols fairly easily...
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Old October 4, 2012, 10:10 PM   #99
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To take cover, run, escape is reasonable and when possible should be part of any good defense. Tacticians in all ages have shown that it's better avoid a fight when you can and from the distances mentioned I would choose flight over fight.

I have meet lots of over zealous gun carrying persons that really think being in a gun fight would be cool afternoon. I say let the police handle it. Would I pull my gun and fire at a bad guy attacking me hell yeah; bad guy fleeing and being shoot in the back where I live may be murder. I am confident enough with my weapon that I could stop a threat or to be clear hit what I aim at and I would pray the if in this dreaded scenario the threat would be down stopped or slowed enough for me to escape, regroup, and call for help.

To me the bad guy starts with the advavtage he knows what he came to do, and if given a chance to retreat, take cover, regroup, get more help that's my choice, yours is no doubt different.
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Old October 4, 2012, 10:53 PM   #100
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Bullets are fast. In the military there's a thing called fire control. Which means that if you are firing you basically control the situation, If an assailant is firing in your direction, running is a bad idea. I agree with you on a retreating bad guy. But if he is firing while he is retreating, which I expect a cowardly thug to do, he is by law an attacker seeking cover, which means you can still engage him. Even law enforcement will engage the assailant. If you fire to stop a thug during or after he has committed a violent felony, you can engage. That's the law where I live. You dony have to, you can run or take cover and that's ok, I don't blame you, live, but if he is shooting in your direction, no matter how close, don't run, especially if there are others present, STOP HIM!! You would be riddled witg guilt if you're in your cozy cover watching some panic frozen lady and her child being chopped down by this punk, while you sit there with a full mag waiting for the all clear. Will you at least fire in the air? Not to be a hero, just to be a responsible armed citizen. That is the mindset you need if you're going to carry. Otherwise whatever you carry is just an expensive security blanket. I carry because I have a family, I work hard for what I have, and no one will take that from me, or me from that. Up close, far away, whatever, don't run, live, fight, survive, shoot to live!
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