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Old September 25, 2012, 07:35 PM   #1
Double Naught Spy
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No Charges for Leesburg Deputy

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495786

Some outrage was expressed in the previous thread about deputies doing wrong. Apparently the prosecutor found no wrong doing and is not going to press charges. Deputies knocked on Scott's door while looking for a suspect and Scott answered with a gun that was pointed at a deputy who shot Scott multiple times in apparent self defense.

In regard to concerns of the previous thread...
Quote:
Deputy Sheriff Richard Sylvester fired at Scott after Scott pointed his gun at the deputy's face, the investigation found. When knocking on Scott's door, Sylvester didn't announce he was a deputy. He wasn't required to identify himself as law enforcement because he didn't intend to forcibly enter the apartment, prosecutors said.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,7892093.story
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; September 25, 2012 at 07:57 PM. Reason: link correction
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Old September 25, 2012, 08:05 PM   #2
sigcurious
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Hrm...neither the original article or the one you linked has many details. But assuming the details are correct, I don't see why the deputy should be charged.

It's a sad situation though because it does bring up many possible what-ifs and how do we know thats what happened questions.
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Old September 26, 2012, 09:14 AM   #3
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Around here the cops let you know who is knocking; the two times a LEO has come to my door asking once about some vehicle breaks ins in the area and the second time asking questions about a neighbor who turned out was a wanted sex offender...anyways both times it was the preverbal cop knock followed by "XXXX Police". They identified themselves; I did not come to the door armed. I actually made it a point to make sure both of my hands were visible as I opened the door and to make sure I ditched my pocket knife before I went to the door.

Something LEO's need to understand about lawful gun owners which for their purposes could be anyone in a home they are entering. First If you cannot see me in my home through a window I cannot see you.

If someone comes knocking on my door past 10 or before 8 I am on Alert.
I will probably arm myself before going to check on who it could be. I would not do anything as foolish as "waving" the gun about like the poor guy who ended up dead in this case but more than likely I would have my P229 in a SOTB holster.
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Old September 26, 2012, 09:33 AM   #4
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Quote:
anyways both times it was the preverbal cop knock followed by "XXXX Police". They identified themselves; I did not come to the door armed. I actually made it a point to make sure both of my hands were visible as I opened the door and to make sure I ditched my pocket knife before I went to the door.
So, you disarmed yourself and then opened the door? How did you know they were really police officers?
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Old September 26, 2012, 10:22 AM   #5
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I have heard from some LEO friends that "Wait while I call 911 and verify you" is not considered an inappropriate response.

I don't think answering a door with a displayed weapon is a good idea in the vast majority of instances.
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Old September 26, 2012, 11:29 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
I have heard from some LEO friends that "Wait while I call 911 and verify you" is not considered an inappropriate response.

I don't think answering a door with a displayed weapon is a good idea in the vast majority of instances.
MLeake,

Actually if there is any question about "is that a real police officer/deputy at the door, its suggested by a ton of departments to call 911, and also reply to the request to answer the door, "I am calling 911 to verify that you are actually the police"

The only issue I do see is that if it is a state or fed agency, they may not have notified the local dispatchers who answer 911 that they are in the area or at that address, hence it may take a while to actually verify.
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Old September 26, 2012, 12:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
So, you disarmed yourself and then opened the door? How did you know they were really police officers?
I disarm myself because I read more stories about cops lighting up homeowners than I do about police impersonators in full uniform knocking on doors during the day. Trust me I did not just "open" the door; i have a pretty good peep hole to see what is outside and I have a gun hidden most of the time within several pases of my front door. I know it is a risk but the name of the game is risk midigation. In my case the chances of someone kicking my front door open before I could retreat and get to a weapon are low.

The first time it was maybe 11AM or so on a Saturday. I looked through the peep hole, both were in proper uniform and looked the part. I know there are police impersonators out there but these two looked the part of a LEO. Clean cut military look.


The second time (when they were looking for the sex offender neighbor) it was two female detectivs with badges showing and two males uniformed officers. Again; everything looked right, men clean cut women very professional looking. It was 7am which was kind of odd.

Call it a fatal flaw but the village I live in does not have a very large police force. Most cops seem to have that police/ex-mil "look" about them.

Quote:
I have heard from some LEO friends that "Wait while I call 911 and verify you" is not considered an inappropriate response.
I guess it depends on who is knocking on your door; if a Narc team is looking to search your home in error I don't think they will be waiting for you to verify them via 911.

Last edited by Patriot86; September 26, 2012 at 12:54 PM.
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Old September 26, 2012, 03:03 PM   #8
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A narc team is a separate set of problems - especially as, in many areas, they will enter via no-knock.
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Old September 27, 2012, 10:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
I read more stories about cops lighting up homeowners than I do about police impersonators in full uniform knocking on doors
Yep
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Old September 27, 2012, 11:55 AM   #10
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Apparently the prosecutor found no wrong doing and is not going to press charges.
We had a local case with a guy with 4 bullets in the back and a coroner stating that "the physical evidence does not match the officer's description of the incident". Guess what the prosecutor found (hint, the same as in every other police shooting case in the last 25 years). The prosecutor not filing charges is not an indication of lack of wrongdoing; lets check back if the city settles any civil claims to avoid a trial.
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Old September 27, 2012, 08:33 PM   #11
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Shooting somebody in the back isn't illegal in and of itself. Just because you don't agree with the decision not to prosecute doesn't mean the shooting was bad.

As for Scott, prosecutors did say that the shooting was justified and for their scope, that is no wrong doing. If it makes you feel better, no criminal wrong doing.
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Old September 27, 2012, 08:41 PM   #12
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I really don't see any blameworthiness in the officer. He had a gun in his face. Tragic? Yeah. But I think most people, LEO or not, would have shot.
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Old September 27, 2012, 09:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
coroner stating that "the physical evidence does not match the officer's description of the incident".
Coroners collect bodies and determine causes of death. Which is only one piece of evidence. An agency other than the one involved in the shooting usually investigates the whole of the scene and all the evidence.

Quote:
lets check back if the city settles any civil claims to avoid a trial.
The world we live in cities settle unjust suits all the times because the cost of defending against them is greater than just paying them off.
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Old September 27, 2012, 09:46 PM   #14
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bad decision to open the door like that. I am guessing it was an impulse decision that determined his time to cross over to the other side.
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Old September 28, 2012, 07:02 PM   #15
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Deputy did nothing wrong? try this one on for size..

http://spokanevalley.kxly.com/news/c...s-online/50657

Question: If Brian Herzel had been Joe Citizen, do you think he would have been charged with murder?

No, Brian Herzil never was charged with anything. He resigned to move to Florida. This was from the same DA that did not find anything wrong with Karl Thompson's murder of Otto Zehm...It took 5 years and a FEDERAL court to convict Thompson...and now, total of 6 years later, Thompson is still not in Jail.

Or maybe some of you have heard of Ian Birk? and his murder of Native American woodcarver Williams? Cost the city $1.3M.. Birk? well he went on to cost the City a few more $$$$$$$$ before they finally fired him. Jail time, hej, he's a cop, he can do what he wants...

might want to check: http://www.seattleweekly.com/related/to/Ian+Birk/

When I hear a cop shot a civilian, I no longer even consider it might be justified unless there is some part of the report that states the person shot was actively shooting at the cops.

Why are cops so trigger happy? There is no incentive not to be. Shoot someone and get paid "administrative leave" for as long as the jurisdiction decides to take to "investigate". Most incidences that would put Joe Citizen in in prison, or at least in court...they are never charged, and if they are charged their union pays for their lawyers.

Last edited by hermannr; September 28, 2012 at 07:25 PM.
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Old September 28, 2012, 11:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
When I hear a cop shot a civilian, I no longer even consider it might be justified unless there is some part of the report that states the person shot was actively shooting at the cops.
Given that 99% of shootings involved are thoroughly investigated, often by outside agencies, and no wrongdoing is found, that's like thinking every horse you see is Secretariat.

So if you read a story about a 6'8" 300 pound man charging police swinging two machetes, you'd cry foul because he didn't have a gun?

Sorry, but that's nonsense.
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Old September 29, 2012, 03:29 PM   #17
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Question: If Brian Herzel had been Joe Citizen, do you think he would have been charged with murder?

Why would he be charged with anything? Did you read the report? I did, and I don't see where the Deputy was in the wrong.
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Old September 29, 2012, 06:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Deputy did nothing wrong? try this one on for size..

http://spokanevalley.kxly.com/news/c...s-online/50657
This has nothing to do with the Leeburg incident, does it? Just because you don't like something that happened somewhere else doesn't mean it pertains to Leesburg. Just because they are both deputies doesn't make them the same case.

There is no trying this one on for size nonsense. It isn't the same incident.
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Old September 29, 2012, 10:14 PM   #19
hermannr
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Conn Trooper!

Yes I read the report, I have also read all of the news articles...so, if a business owner walks in on his own property to investigate you in an unmarked car, you would yell at him to get on the ground before you even asked who that person was???? (that probably looked like he just got out of bed)

Come on now, Mr. Creech just came from the house next door...a 70 year old man...and you would just shoot him because he did not lie down on the ground, on his own property,,,how about talking a bit first so you know who you are dealing with.

The lie about Herzil hitting Creech with his baton, is just that, a lie. In the autopsy there were no bruses found on Creech's body from any baton strikes...Creech's weapon was still in his waist band when the medics picked him up...

and you don't think Herzil got a bit carried away when he paniced?

It's amazing how good a story sounds when there are no witnesses, but you...don't you think.
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Old September 29, 2012, 11:03 PM   #20
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This discussion is about a particular incident and should be restricted to discussion about that incident or about other specific incidents with an obviously direct relationship to the incident in question.
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Old September 29, 2012, 11:28 PM   #21
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How do we know that the gun was "in the deputy's face"? Do we just take the deputy's word for it?
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Old September 30, 2012, 05:43 AM   #22
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Well how do we know anything about anything we didn't witness ourselves? There were multiple deputies present, as I recall. The only conflicting account was the girlfriend who came up with multiple accounts.

You are questioning the validity of the investigation, which is fine, but to what end? Do you have information to the contrary? The prosecution took the evidence available based on an investigation to reach their conclusions, so what do you bring to the query?

Maybe you should read this report and it will answer your questions...
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/...-lake-0925.pdf
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Old September 30, 2012, 02:46 PM   #23
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Conn Trooper!

Yes I read the report, I have also read all of the news articles...so, if a business owner walks in on his own property to investigate you in an unmarked car, you would yell at him to get on the ground before you even asked who that person was???? (that probably looked like he just got out of bed)


If I was in uniform, in my car, and someone approached me with a gun, refused commands and then reached for that weapon, I would shoot him too. The deputy was in uniform, identified himself multiple times, and fired only after the person reached for a weapon. What is the problem here? What am I missing? I read through all that and I don't see the issue.
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Old September 30, 2012, 03:39 PM   #24
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Trooper, your message was spot on, IMO, for what we are seeing/interpreting.
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Old September 30, 2012, 04:03 PM   #25
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Thanks Al. Don't get me wrong, I think both cases were a tragedy. I just don't see how the cops were in the wrong. Cops make mistakes every day, granted, they are human. I just don't see it here.
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