HK Mark 23 VS. M1911

BloodOmen911 · April 4, 2012, 01:35 PM

Which one performs better? I have heard lots of good things about the HK Mark 23, but does it still perform better than the good high quality M1911s out there?

Or does it just boil down to whatever feels the most comfortable in your hand?

osageid · April 4, 2012, 01:51 PM

You cant compare the two, I have a Mark 23 and my son has a kimber. Like comparing apples and oranges. They both are very accurate guns and it is a matter of what strikes your fancy.

MLeake · April 4, 2012, 01:59 PM

The MK23 is pretty massive. What uses do you want? If considering concealed carry, the 1911 is much more practical.

Hand size may also be a factor.

BloodOmen911 · April 4, 2012, 02:07 PM

I don't plan on using it for conceal carry. I just want to know what is more reliable and more accurate.

WVsig · April 4, 2012, 02:08 PM

I think it depends on which 1911 vs the Mark 23... What is the current cost on a Mark 23?

BloodOmen911 · April 4, 2012, 02:12 PM

I think they run around $1,300.

osageid · April 4, 2012, 02:13 PM

agree with ML, there is almost no use for the Mark 23 as a carry weapon. The gun has significant mass!

osageid · April 4, 2012, 02:16 PM

Mark 23 next to my usp40 which substantially thicker than any 1911.

osageid · April 4, 2012, 02:18 PM

Mark 23 runs about 1900 on average, anything less is used and if there is a used one under 1500 then it is usually a very fair price!

WVsig · April 4, 2012, 02:21 PM

At about $1900 is will be a push. At that price range you are looking at a lower end Dan Wesson Valor or Les Baer Premier in the 1911 world. These will both run like tops with proper maintence. I think that even the best 1911s will require more maintance than the Mark 23. I am not a big fan of +P 45 ammo. I do not think it is worth the extra expense.

As far as accuracy is concerned both will be much more accurate than 99% of most shooters. Your like or dislike of the trigger, its pull and its length will come into more play than the mechanical accuracy of either gun IMHO. Not sure what the Mark 23 shoots at 50 yards but my Les Baer TRS will shoot in the 2.15" range from a rest at 50 yards.

If you are looking to slop this thing through the mud and adverse conditions I personally do not think either of these 2 are the ideal choice.

BloodOmen911 · April 4, 2012, 02:21 PM

Do you think i'd get more reliability out of a HK Mark 23, or a high quality M1911 such as a Kimber? I'm just looking for a good workhorse .45 that won't choke on +P and work under terrible conditions.

BloodOmen911 · April 4, 2012, 02:22 PM

Thanks WV, that's exactly what i was looking for!

WVsig · April 4, 2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Thanks WV, that's exactly what i was looking for!

I edited my orginal comments. I think at $1300 a lower end Dan Wesson would serve you well but will require more maintance than the Mark 23. Both will handle high pressure loads but if you are looking at shooting thousands and thousandes of +p 45 I would go with the Mark 23 for a pure range pistol.

That said it may or may not fit your hands and you may or may not like the trigger. Same goes for any 1911.

Again I think if you are looking to slop this thing through the mud and adverse conditions I personally do not think either of these 2 are the ideal choice.

osageid · April 4, 2012, 02:29 PM

During development of the Mark 23 at 50 meters average group was 1.44 inches and multiple sets with groupings well under one inch. If you go to
hkusa.com you can read about the testing and performance of the gun. No 1911 can hold up to the torture test that this gun performed at. The mark 23 is what spawned the whole USP series and the ironic thing is it was developed from the 1911 format

buds guns has the mark 23 for just under 1900, I bought mine transfer fee and all for $1920

Adamantium · April 4, 2012, 02:29 PM

Buds has it listed for $1,889 and in stock.

Quote:

Which one performs better? I have heard lots of good things about the HK Mark 23, but does it still perform better than the good high quality M1911s out there? Or does it just boil down to whatever feels the most comfortable in your hand?

Perform at what? To be honest I've never seen a gun so good that it gives someone more skill than they already have. But if it were my money I'd take a 1911, either a double stack STI or a dozen or more single stacks models available.

WVsig · April 4, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

During development of the Mark 23 at 50 meters average group was 1.44 inches and multiple sets with groupings well under one inch.

And how much does that translate into real world shooting....

For 99% of us NONE!!!

Now as far as it holding up under adverse conditions I agree the the Mark 23 would be better but again neither one would be my first choice.

BloodOmen911 · April 4, 2012, 02:36 PM

I guess i'm going to go with the HK Mark 23. It seems like its a unrelenting nail driver!

osageid · April 4, 2012, 02:36 PM

NO doubt on that WVsig!! I totally agree with that! I will say this, it is a tack driver! It is very pleasant to shoot!!

WVsig · April 4, 2012, 02:42 PM

Quote:

NO doubt on that WVsig!! I totally agree with that! I will say this, it is a tack driver! It is very pleasant to shoot!!

I hear you.. I would not deny that you keyhole with that thing all day long in the right hands. You can get similar accuracy out of a Les Baer who will guarantee 1 1/2" at 50 yards but it will cost you more than $1900.

I also believe that the right smith can tune or build a 1911 from the ground up that will hold its own against the Mark 23 in terms of accuracy but you will give up reliablity in adverse conditions to get there. Depending on the smith it could be done for the $1900 mark but more than likely it will cost you more.

osageid · April 4, 2012, 02:54 PM

I also believe that the right smith can tune or build a 1911 from the ground up that will hold its own against the Mark 23 in terms of accuracy but you will give up reliablity in adverse conditions to get there. Depending on the smith it could be done for the $1900 mark but more than likely it will cost you more.

My son bought his Kimber tactical custom II slightly used for $800 and I do love the gun! Dont get me wrong, I do like the platform. I am astonished and some of the wilson combat guns ... you talk about

Chindo18Z · April 4, 2012, 03:55 PM

The MK23 was designed to fill a USN NSW requirement that included mounting dawn-age target acquisition devices (laser/white light aiming modules, suppressor, etc.), while delivering exceptional combat accuracy using .45 ACP (and with higher magazine capacity). A pistol that could come out of the water shooting as some SEAL was scaling a GOPLAT in the North Sea or Persian Gulf.

In other words, a quiet, reliable, long sight radiused sentry removal tool and CQB pistol. Suppressed pistols were still considered an "In Thing" for CQB back when the requirement was let for a Special Operations Offensive Pistol.

The MK 23 delivered on all counts, but at the cost of being a physically huge pistol. Over the years, mountable pistol accessories have all become smaller...and descendant pistols like the HK .45 USP Tactical provide similar performance in a lot smaller package.

The MK23 will out-group any standard military issue M1911A1 (it was designed to), but arguing absolute accuracy in comparison to custom 1911s is a wash, as few shooters can actually meet the accuracy potential of either the HK or a high end 1911. I rarely saw a MK23 drawn from my unit's arms room for other than familiarization fire on the range. The suppressor was the main draw...but with stellar accuracy universally noted. However, nobody ever actually carried the damn things on a hip holster. Simply too big for practical carry except as a tool packed away in a rucksack pouch.

For reliability under adverse conditions? The MK23 was specifically designed for hard use under tough field conditions. If you need to low crawl through muddy fields or infiltrate the surf zone on some rocky beach along the Russian coast...go with the HK. For practical purposes, any well designed high end 1911 is going to deliver about the same reliability...although you might scratch up the semi-custom logo and finish.

Keep in mind, the size of the MK23 pretty much precludes any reasonable hope for CCW carry by normally sized people. I've only seen one or two ever carried in the field (thigh rigs) in the real world. It's not as heavy as it appears, but it is still a huge hunk of plastic and steel.

Two entirely different pistol concepts (both excellent), and you would be wise to go with the one that feels best in your hand.

osageid · April 4, 2012, 05:28 PM

I agree, that is why I started out saying apples to oranges

BloodOmen911 · April 4, 2012, 05:36 PM

Man, it sounds like they went through ALOT of testing with the HK! Now, i must save my money and purchase one of these nail drivers

I don't plan on conceal carrying anytime soon, i'm only 19.

I've got a private seller and i live in Texas so it's all legal

reticle · April 4, 2012, 05:45 PM

If it's about adverse conditions and reliability, I'd go Mark 23, but get a lightly used one. You'll likely be more comfortable with the 1911 grip and trigger. My 1911s get finicky if they are not clean and the conditions are muddy/dirty. I've read that the Mark 23 is rated for consistent use of 45 super. I don't think I would try that in an unmodified 1911.

vyse.04 · April 4, 2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Man, it sounds like they went through ALOT of testing with the HK!

Yeah they did. There have been a few other models that have gone through tons of rounds as well (P30). HK has always catered more towards the Military/LEO market, so the demands for a reliable firearm are much higher for those contracts. The R&D, as well as testing is reflected in their costs. I'd love to shoot a MK23 one day, but given the choice between owning another 1911 or MK23, I would give the nod to a 1911 (strictly out of personal preference for single stacks).

April 4, 2012, 01:35 PM	#1
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	HK Mark 23 VS. M1911 Which one performs better? I have heard lots of good things about the HK Mark 23, but does it still perform better than the good high quality M1911s out there? Or does it just boil down to whatever feels the most comfortable in your hand? __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

April 4, 2012, 01:51 PM	#2
osageid Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Posts: 286	You cant compare the two, I have a Mark 23 and my son has a kimber. Like comparing apples and oranges. They both are very accurate guns and it is a matter of what strikes your fancy. __________________ HK Mark 23 HK 45 HK USP .40 Glock 22,Glock 36

April 4, 2012, 02:07 PM	#4
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	I don't plan on using it for conceal carry. I just want to know what is more reliable and more accurate. __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

April 4, 2012, 02:08 PM	#5
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	I think it depends on which 1911 vs the Mark 23... What is the current cost on a Mark 23? __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

April 4, 2012, 02:12 PM	#6
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	I think they run around $1,300. __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

April 4, 2012, 01:59 PM	#3
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	The MK23 is pretty massive. What uses do you want? If considering concealed carry, the 1911 is much more practical. Hand size may also be a factor.

April 4, 2012, 02:13 PM	#7
osageid Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Posts: 286	agree with ML, there is almost no use for the Mark 23 as a carry weapon. The gun has significant mass! __________________ HK Mark 23 HK 45 HK USP .40 Glock 22,Glock 36

April 4, 2012, 02:18 PM	#9
osageid Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Posts: 286	Mark 23 runs about 1900 on average, anything less is used and if there is a used one under 1500 then it is usually a very fair price! __________________ HK Mark 23 HK 45 HK USP .40 Glock 22,Glock 36

April 4, 2012, 02:21 PM	#10
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	At about $1900 is will be a push. At that price range you are looking at a lower end Dan Wesson Valor or Les Baer Premier in the 1911 world. These will both run like tops with proper maintence. I think that even the best 1911s will require more maintance than the Mark 23. I am not a big fan of +P 45 ammo. I do not think it is worth the extra expense. As far as accuracy is concerned both will be much more accurate than 99% of most shooters. Your like or dislike of the trigger, its pull and its length will come into more play than the mechanical accuracy of either gun IMHO. Not sure what the Mark 23 shoots at 50 yards but my Les Baer TRS will shoot in the 2.15" range from a rest at 50 yards. If you are looking to slop this thing through the mud and adverse conditions I personally do not think either of these 2 are the ideal choice. __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle Last edited by WVsig; April 4, 2012 at 02:29 PM.

April 4, 2012, 02:22 PM	#12
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	Thanks WV, that's exactly what i was looking for! __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

April 4, 2012, 02:29 PM	#14
osageid Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Posts: 286	During development of the Mark 23 at 50 meters average group was 1.44 inches and multiple sets with groupings well under one inch. If you go to hkusa.com you can read about the testing and performance of the gun. No 1911 can hold up to the torture test that this gun performed at. The mark 23 is what spawned the whole USP series and the ironic thing is it was developed from the 1911 format buds guns has the mark 23 for just under 1900, I bought mine transfer fee and all for $1920 __________________ HK Mark 23 HK 45 HK USP .40 Glock 22,Glock 36

April 4, 2012, 02:36 PM	#17
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	I guess i'm going to go with the HK Mark 23. It seems like its a unrelenting nail driver! __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

April 4, 2012, 02:54 PM	#20
osageid Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Posts: 286	I also believe that the right smith can tune or build a 1911 from the ground up that will hold its own against the Mark 23 in terms of accuracy but you will give up reliablity in adverse conditions to get there. Depending on the smith it could be done for the $1900 mark but more than likely it will cost you more. My son bought his Kimber tactical custom II slightly used for $800 and I do love the gun! Dont get me wrong, I do like the platform. I am astonished and some of the wilson combat guns ... you talk about __________________ HK Mark 23 HK 45 HK USP .40 Glock 22,Glock 36

April 4, 2012, 03:55 PM	#21
Chindo18Z Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 1999 Posts: 498	The MK23 was designed to fill a USN NSW requirement that included mounting dawn-age target acquisition devices (laser/white light aiming modules, suppressor, etc.), while delivering exceptional combat accuracy using .45 ACP (and with higher magazine capacity). A pistol that could come out of the water shooting as some SEAL was scaling a GOPLAT in the North Sea or Persian Gulf. In other words, a quiet, reliable, long sight radiused sentry removal tool and CQB pistol. Suppressed pistols were still considered an "In Thing" for CQB back when the requirement was let for a Special Operations Offensive Pistol. The MK 23 delivered on all counts, but at the cost of being a physically huge pistol. Over the years, mountable pistol accessories have all become smaller...and descendant pistols like the HK .45 USP Tactical provide similar performance in a lot smaller package. The MK23 will out-group any standard military issue M1911A1 (it was designed to), but arguing absolute accuracy in comparison to custom 1911s is a wash, as few shooters can actually meet the accuracy potential of either the HK or a high end 1911. I rarely saw a MK23 drawn from my unit's arms room for other than familiarization fire on the range. The suppressor was the main draw...but with stellar accuracy universally noted. However, nobody ever actually carried the damn things on a hip holster. Simply too big for practical carry except as a tool packed away in a rucksack pouch. For reliability under adverse conditions? The MK23 was specifically designed for hard use under tough field conditions. If you need to low crawl through muddy fields or infiltrate the surf zone on some rocky beach along the Russian coast...go with the HK. For practical purposes, any well designed high end 1911 is going to deliver about the same reliability...although you might scratch up the semi-custom logo and finish. Keep in mind, the size of the MK23 pretty much precludes any reasonable hope for CCW carry by normally sized people. I've only seen one or two ever carried in the field (thigh rigs) in the real world. It's not as heavy as it appears, but it is still a huge hunk of plastic and steel. Two entirely different pistol concepts (both excellent), and you would be wise to go with the one that feels best in your hand. __________________ Figure The Odds... Last edited by Chindo18Z; April 4, 2012 at 04:33 PM.

April 4, 2012, 05:28 PM	#22
osageid Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Posts: 286	I agree, that is why I started out saying apples to oranges

April 4, 2012, 05:36 PM	#23
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	Man, it sounds like they went through ALOT of testing with the HK! Now, i must save my money and purchase one of these nail drivers I don't plan on conceal carrying anytime soon, i'm only 19. I've got a private seller and i live in Texas so it's all legal __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin Last edited by BloodOmen911; April 4, 2012 at 05:41 PM.

April 4, 2012, 05:45 PM	#24
reticle Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2002 Location: ut. Posts: 341	If it's about adverse conditions and reliability, I'd go Mark 23, but get a lightly used one. You'll likely be more comfortable with the 1911 grip and trigger. My 1911s get finicky if they are not clean and the conditions are muddy/dirty. I've read that the Mark 23 is rated for consistent use of 45 super. I don't think I would try that in an unmodified 1911.