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Old September 14, 2012, 02:59 AM   #1
Tangentabacus
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My 1,000 Yard Mission

For the last couple years I've been entertaining the idea of long LONG rang shooting. I've made hits at like 500ish yards but never really tried anything more. I'm no expert rifleman so I am looking for any tips or suggestions.

What I got to work with:
Rifle is a Remington 700 SPS Tactical (Edit: Actually figured out it's probably an SPS Varmint? It's got the heavy barrel) chambered in .308
I have a Center Point... Uh... This > http://www.walmart.com/ip/Centerpoin...Class/14234831
I also have a harris bipod on bottom too.

This set up has gotten me pretty good shots on a consistent basis, but I'm not sure it's capable of 1,000 yards, however I don't know many people with this rifle either...

Ye wise men of TFL... Bestow upon me your knowledge. Should I "glass" the rifle? Will this rifle work for what I want to do? Just any ideas in general.

Last edited by Tangentabacus; September 14, 2012 at 03:06 AM.
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Old September 14, 2012, 08:17 AM   #2
kraigwy
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Don't do anything to the rifle until you figure out if its broke or not.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

How does it group now???? If you can keep it under 2 MOA then hold off on doing anything to the rifle.

I don't know about the scope you mentioned. If it holds a zero and has positive clicks for elevation and windage, then it should get you there.

You need to find ammo. Something along the lines of 175 SMKs or 178 Amax. going about 2600 FPS or better. It has to remain super sonic (faster then the speed of sound) at 1000 yards.

Run the ammo through a chronograph and put the number in one of the free ballistic program. (Berger Bullets has a good free program on their website).

I don't know about bipods and such, I don't use them. I don't like them for personal reasons. I use a sling un supported or use a sling and rest my forearm on a back pack or something. Thats up to you and what style of shooting you want.

Get a good zero. Figure your "come ups" to 1000 yards and shoot it.

Now comes the caveat. Just about any gun and ammo combo will get you to 1000 yards.

The shooter is the weak link. You have to know about reading wind and other environmental conditions. One thing you'll learn right from the get go is there is no such thing as a no wind day. Its out there, some where between you and the target (at 1000 yards) there is some sort of wind.

You have to find it and compensate for it.

Lot of people have started using wind meters to tell them what the wind it and ribbons on their scope stands to get direction.

Fine. That will tell you what the wind is where you are sitting, but the bullet isn't effected that much there, you are ground level. The bullet (the one described above) is going to be about 30-35 feet in the air.

What the wind is doing on the ground, and what its doing 35 feet up is different as night and day.

Try this. Find a range that uses range flags. Take two flags. Put one at the top of the pole, (about 30 ft in the air) and put one about 6 ft off the ground (the height one uses a wind meter). Watch the flags. The are reacting different because the wind is different. Might not even be blowing the same way.

Wind gets bullets up in the air not at ground level.

Wind meters are great if you know how to use them. Leave the rifle home. Take your wind meter and spotting scope and go to the range, or any open field. Look through the scope and see what the mirage is doing. Then look at the wind meter and see what it says. Learn what wind does to mirage.

With enough practice you'll learn to use mirage in determining wind values.

Now focus the scope at a point about 1/2 to 2/3s ways between you and the target, and get it up in the air a bit. About 30 feet. That is where the wind will have the most effect on the bullet.

Using what you learned with your wind meter/mirage practice, get an idea of the wind velocity.

So now you have to correct. Using the 175/178 bullet in a 308 you can use a constant of 10. So after you get a wind velocity, multiply that times the yardage in hundreds of yards and divide that number by 10 (your constant).

Lets say you have an 8 mph wind and are shooting 1000 yards. That would be 8 X 10 / 10 = 8

That tells you you have to click 8 MOA into the wind. A full value wind is 8 clicks Full value being 3 or 9 o'clock. It its 1-2 o'clock it would be a 1/2 value wind or 4 MOA.

All this can't be done over night. It takes hours upon ours, days upon days, and tons of bullets down range.

As I said, if your gun/ammo combo will do 2 MOA, don't waste money on fixing the gun. Spend that money on rounds down range.

After you get to where you can out shoot the gun, meaning you can constantly shoot 2 MOA at a 1000 yards, then worry about your equipment.
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Old September 14, 2012, 08:30 AM   #3
tobnpr
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Far as the optic itself goes... I doubt it has enough internal adjustment, you would need to check.

A 175 grain SMK at 2600 FPS will require about 40 minutes of come-up from a 100 yard zero.

You didn't say what type of mount or optic, you're currently using.

This means that unless you have a 20-minute down-angle base, you need a scope with more than 80 minutes of elevation adjustment. Most inexpensive (and a lot of expensive ones as well) won't be able to do it.

The down angle base will open a lot more options to you...
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Old September 14, 2012, 09:02 AM   #4
kraigwy
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Lets not over complacate the issue.

Why do you need 80 min of elevation to shoot 1000 yards with a 308.

The actual come up for that round is about 35 MOA. If you have 40 min of elevation (and most scopes do, although I don't know about the scope mentioned, I bet it does).

Pretty much any mounts would work. I use Weaver two piece mounts on my target rifles and they work great.

If the mounts don't allow you to use your 40 MOA of elevation the scope gives you SHIM THEM. Shim the bases until you can bottom out (or have a couple more min.) at 100 yards. Then you should have no problem getting to 1000 yards.

You can check this by the angle of your barrel compared to the scopes line of sight when sighted in at 1000 yards (based on your ballistic program).

For the mentioned bullet the angle of departure should be a bit less then 48 minutes or 26 mils.

Meaning that's the angle of the barrel when the scope is sighted in at 1000 yards.

There are 17.7 mils in a degree. So you're barrel should be pointed up about 1.47 (1 and 1/2) degrees. A protractor will give you that. If you can't get that, shim the bases.

Never could understand why people say you need 80 minutes to get to 40 minutes of elevation.
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Old September 14, 2012, 09:05 AM   #5
chucknbach
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I had a 4x16 version of that CP scope on my 7mm mag it has 80MOA adjustment it got me out to 1000 yards.

I only had it on there temporarily so really didn't put it through the paces.

My advise is too start shooting 1000 than see where the holes are in your equipment.
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Old September 14, 2012, 04:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Never could understand why people say you need 80 minutes to get to 40 minutes of elevation.
That would be because most manufacturers list total range of elevation adjustment- and 80 minutes of total adjustment means 40 minutes up from center, and 40 minutes down...

If all the adjustment were available for come-up, we wouldn't need down angle bases.
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Old September 14, 2012, 04:57 PM   #7
iraiam
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Tangentabacus,

I an pretty sure your rifle will shoot 1000 yards. I have hits at 1000 yards with a Remington Model 721 30-06, 168 grain bullets. If my 50 year old rifle can do it....
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Old September 14, 2012, 05:00 PM   #8
TheSILENTtype
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absolutly no question what so ever it will shoot 1000.

the question is, how will you do so accurately and what equipment will you opt to do this with.
I think that's been covered by the SS trained guys.
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Old September 14, 2012, 05:11 PM   #9
chucknbach
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Sorry. I just checked my 4x16 CP it only has 60 MOA total adjustment and not 80.
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Old September 14, 2012, 05:17 PM   #10
kraigwy
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You don't need60 MOA adjustments to get to 1000. Only need 35 or so from your 100 yard zero.
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Last edited by kraigwy; September 14, 2012 at 08:10 PM.
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Old September 14, 2012, 05:23 PM   #11
chucknbach
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Looks like CP doesn't make yours or mine any longer. You'll just have to count your MOA.
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Old September 14, 2012, 07:33 PM   #12
Samurai1981
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I actually have the exact same weapon as you with a bipod. My scope is a lot more powerful though. I have absolutely no problem hitting targets at 1000 yds and even further. You just need to make the proper adjustments depending on the wind, elevation and type of ammo you're using. But once you find that sweet spot in your gear you will hit that target any time you want to.
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Old September 14, 2012, 08:45 PM   #13
Tangentabacus
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There is a lot of information here that I wasn't totally prepared for. Anyone have any good reading material on the math and science behind shooting super long ranges like this? Nothing like a text book... Just curious if someone has put out any good summary on how this all works. I thought I had a good enough idea behind MOA, windage, drop, bullet grain, but kraigwy has shown me that I have a few large holes in my understanding. I need to read up!

As for the scope mount (Funny story here I'll tell you later) it's just a cheap-ish rail bolted down onto the receiver that I have scope rings attached to. I got the rail from Brownells for maybe $30 and the scope rings off Amazon for maybe $40. Originally this gun was just going to be for plinking at the range, but I got bored of my local range which can only go out to 200 yards or so. So I took my shooting to a gravel pit near my house that gives me about 500 yards, which is a fun challenge, but one that I've gotten down enough where it's not really a challenge anymore. That's my other challenge is finding a 1,000 yard area to shoot. Which is the reason behind why it's a "mission". I'm going to have to do some serious scouting to even find a spot probably up in the mountains where I live.

And as for my story. This gun kind of fell in my lap. A friend of mine bought this gun; he was kind of the mall ninja type. When he initially paid for it I think he was telling me he got it for about $700 and paid another $50 to put scope rings on it at the place he bought it. However, for as long as he had it, it never fired. The firing pin never made full contact with the shell and never would fire. So he wrote the gun off as broken, and the place he bought it from wouldn't return it. Before he could get around to sending it to a gunsmith I told him that I would take his "broken" gun off his hands. Turns out that whoever put in the scope rings put in too long of screws into the rings and it kept the bolt head from making contact with the round because the bolt seized up when it hit the bottom of that screw. I took the "broken" rifle for $100, unscrewed a screw on the scope ring and had a fully working rifle.

I'm currently into this rifle maybe $350
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Old September 14, 2012, 09:39 PM   #14
kraigwy
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Quote:
Just curious if someone has put out any good summary on how this all works
Start with this DVD, "Squad Designated Marksmanship" put out by the CMP and the Army Marksmanship Unit. Only $6.95 from the CMP Book store.

It covers:

Quote:
Principals of Shooting, The Prone Supported
Position, The Kneeling Position, The Supported Standing
Position, Ballistics and Zeroing, Wind and Weather, Angle
Shooting, Range Estimation and Moving Targets.
All the prinicapls will apply with any rifle you choose.

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...4=&note5=&max=
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Old September 15, 2012, 01:02 AM   #15
bamaranger
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easy does it

There is no doubt a .308 will simply carry 1000 yds, the issue is, can the rig go that far with aimed fire, without having to hold off. To find out if your rig will go to 1000 with no hold off for elevation, try this:

Get a solid 100 yd zero. As mentioned, a heavier 175 gr slug will stay supersonic that far. The popular 168 match load can go stupid at that range if it does not start fast enough from some rigs, so think hard about 175's.

Once you have your sure enough 100 yd zero, see if you have 36MOA or so of adjustments UP , ie.....144 clicks if you have 1/4 MOA clicks. On some scopes you can count the MOA on the adjustment dial and need not count clicks, simply go up the required amount. Not sure how your dial is set up.

Anyhow, if you don't have enough adjustment left, (36MOA, roughly 144 clicks) then you can address shimming, or an angled base. Canted bases are pretty common, but another solution is to shim.

Finally, with a mil-dot reticle, it is "possible" to figure out what intermediate range zero to use if the rig will not adjust to 1000. In other words, one could establish say somewhere between 700-800 yd zero for "on" and then MAYBE use an appropriate mil-dot, or perhaps the top of the post. That would be awkward and clumsy, and take a lot of shooting and figuring to get right, but it could be done.
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Old September 15, 2012, 01:58 PM   #16
tobnpr
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Quote:
Anyone have any good reading material on the math and science behind shooting super long ranges like this?
Here's a good freebie for a start. There's a ton of free info on the web, just search around.

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource

and some more, in-depth once you've understood the basics...

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballist...culators.shtml
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Old September 15, 2012, 02:49 PM   #17
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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If you get a chance pick up Magpul: The Art of the Precision Rifle. It is a good DVD/BluRay. The instructor Todd Hodnett is one of the foremost long range instructors. I have the SPS Tactical AAC-SD 20" .308, the rifle is more than capable of punching paper at 1000. The math is the most important thing. He (Todd Hodnett) teaches how to read other outside infulences such as wind..ect. He teaches a gentleman to hit steel at 1760 yards with a .308. I have only shot mine to 750 meters, and it still has plenty left. Good luck and let us know how it works out, and be patient.
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Old September 15, 2012, 02:59 PM   #18
rezmedic54
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1000 yards

I shoot my .223 to a 1000 yds. all the time it center punches the paper without a problem. The big thing is learn to read the wind until you do you will get lucky every once in a while and hit the target but to do it with some consistency is another matter all by itself.
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Old September 15, 2012, 04:36 PM   #19
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Most important of all is -
Who are you going to get to make the 2,000 yard round trip to set up targets?
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Old September 15, 2012, 05:45 PM   #20
tobnpr
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Yeah...
Fortunately the range we go to has four or five gas powered carts...
The RSO's get pizzed (rightfully so) when people don't use them, when even at 200 yards. It just eats up shooting time, waiting for some dumb azz to walk back, when he could have used the cart.

All reg's that know the drill ask who's going to what distance, and everyone gets dropped off at 100, 200, 300, etc. out to 600, and picked up on the way back in. The quicker everyone gets back, the quicker the line goes hot again.
Not much in the way of paper punching past 300, it's usually steel at longer ranges; but some guys do place clays on the berms.

There's a dedicated- and much faster- cart for the 1000 yard trip!
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Old September 16, 2012, 06:12 AM   #21
phil mcwilliam
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Just aim higher.
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Old September 17, 2012, 09:08 PM   #22
griff383
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Theres lots of good information in this post regarding practice and not equipment. Too many times people dump all their available funds into glass or bipods or whatever and forget that the best tool is practice / experience. Thanks for sharing useful information and not letting this turn into a equipment debate.
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Theres lots of good information in this post regarding practice and not equipment.
Yup, with good reason. The least important piece of the puzzle for 1000 yard shooting is the rifle. Like Kraig said, if it can hold 2 MOA, it is adequate to start with, and just about any modern bolt gun is capable of doing that.
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Old September 18, 2012, 08:00 PM   #24
jeffe65
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I have a question regarding long-range and caliber - The two rifles I want to use to go for 1000yd are an older 30-06 sporter and a relatively new 22-250 with bull barrel and a heavy stock. I've shot the 22-250 out to 385 yards checked using a rangefinder, and it's definitely accurate, and I'd expect it to remain supersonic at 1000, considering muzzle velocity starts at 3600-4000fps.

My question is, is a 22-250 a reasonable caliber to shoot at this distance, what with the lightweight bullets that may not buck the wind at extreme ranges as well as a .308 bullet that weighs 100-120 grains more?
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Old September 18, 2012, 08:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
I'd expect it to remain supersonic at 1000, considering muzzle velocity starts at 3600-4000fps.
I wouldn't make that assumption. The light .224s suitable for the slow twist barrels found on factory .22-250 rifles have fairly low Ballistic Coefficients, and shed their velocity in a hurry.

Running the numbers, a Sierra 50 gr BlitzKing starting at 4000 fps is subsonic before 800 yards (~780)

Yeah, if you have a custom fast twist barrel, you could shoot the heavy target bullets, but frankly if you are putting on a custom barrel, there are probably better choices.

That being said, you can try it. Some bullets handle the supersonic to subsonic transition better than others, you may find your load works.
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