The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 24, 2012, 05:09 PM   #51
Eppie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 802
Norwegian Army adopted the Glock 20

I happen to read in one of my magazines, a couple of months ago, that the Norwegian army adopted the Glock 20 as their side arm for patrols in the artic circle. Apparently they have occasional encounters with polar bears and they wanted a pistol that could be an effective deterent.

I'll have look for the issue.
__________________
"Socialized Medicine is the Keystone to the Arch of the Socialist State.” -Vladimir Lenin
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson (An early warning to Obama care)
Eppie is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 06:13 PM   #52
plouffedaddy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
Wnchester 175jhp Silvertips are full power 10mm and relatively easy to find.. They are devastating on whitetail deer. I shot a large doe with one and it dumped her as fast as a 30-30 rifle. The silvertip ammunition has become my go to round for full power 10mm.
No doubt it's devistating on deer and would be on humans as well but I think the Silvertip is barely full power 10mm ammo. It's probably the best from the big ammo companies, no doubt. But it wasn't even getting 1200fps out of a G20; rather disappointing to me. Comparitively, the Underwood 180gr Gold Dot is getting 1330fps in the same test and is 5gr heavier. Additionally the bonded Gold Dot is probably a better bullet to most.

Again, I don't want to take a Silvertip to the chest and it's a nasty round; but it's not on my list to use for defensive/hunting purposes.

Silvertip Gel Test
__________________
Mrgunsngear's Youtube Channel
Certified Glock Armorer
plouffedaddy is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 06:57 PM   #53
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Im not claiming this is any universal statement... My buddies 45 LC Silvertips were about the least effective round possible when we put hogs down for food... Almost no expansion... Could well be different for other calibers, so take it for what its worth.
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 06:57 PM   #54
Mike_Fontenot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 258
Quote:
Comparitively, the Underwood 180gr Gold Dot is getting 1330fps in the same test and is 5gr heavier. Additionally the bonded Gold Dot is probably a better bullet to most.
I've been considering buying a box of Underwood 10mm 155gr GD, with advertised 775 ft-lb and 1500 ft/s. Do you have any experience with that? I'd really like to get that velocity, but it seems like the bullet problems you saw with the 180gr GD might be even worse at an even higher velocity. (Of course, the fact that that round almost destroyed the gelatin block needs to be considered also!)

Underwood also makes that same 155gr load in an XTP bullet ... have you had any experience with that bullet?
Mike_Fontenot is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 07:05 PM   #55
plouffedaddy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
I've been considering buying a box of Underwood 10mm 155gr GD, with advertised 775 ft-lb and 1500 ft/s. Do you have any experience with that? I'd really like to get that velocity, but it seems like the bullet problems you saw with the 180gr GD might be even worse at an even higher velocity. (Of course, the fact that that round almost destroyed the gelatin block needs to be considered also!)

Underwood also makes that same 155gr load in an XTP bullet ... have you had any experience with that bullet?
I do have experience with the 155gr Gold Dots (chrono below). I agree---the problems with the bullet 'failure' would be worse, but the wound channel 1-10'' deep would likely be nastier as well---just depends on what you're looking for.

I would stay away from the XTP in that load. The XTPs a good bullet but it's not bonded so I'd imagine you'd see some serious bullet failure. The GD bullet is regarded as one of the best on the market (if not the best) and it has issues at that velocity....

Here's the video of the 155gr rounds in a 6'' KKM barrel (chrono at the end):

Video Link For G21 10mm Conversion

-Underwood 155gr Gold Dot JHPs: 1587fps, 866 ft/lbs energy
__________________
Mrgunsngear's Youtube Channel
Certified Glock Armorer
plouffedaddy is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 07:32 PM   #56
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,200
Wnchester Silvertips are doing 650 ftlbs. That is a full power 10mm. There are hotter rounds but a 175gr bullet dumping 650 ftlbs is solid 10mm power.

Last edited by Mystro; September 24, 2012 at 07:42 PM.
Mystro is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 07:43 PM   #57
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,765
The 10mm is a niche handgun. It's for those who want a semi-auto with the performance of a .357 or .41 magnum in a cartridge designed for a semi-auto. That's not to say there aren't specific .357 or .41 mag rounds that might do better; just that they are roughly comparable. Most shooters don't want to shoot full bore magnum loads unless there is a specific need and most don't have that specific need. That's why it is not more popular.

Me? I own one 10mm pistol. Why? Because I didn't have one and it was a good excuse to buy another 1911.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 11:35 PM   #58
Falcon642
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2010
Posts: 314
10mm vs. .357 is close when you use a .357 revolver. When you put the .357 in a semi auto like the Coonan, with no gas losses around the cylinder and through the cylinder gap, you can easily add another 150 fps to every .357 load.

Once you put the .357 in a semi auto, the only advantage the 10mm has left is capacity, and a new Coonan doesn't cost much more than a new Delta Elite.
Falcon642 is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 11:43 PM   #59
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,795
Quote:
Wnchester Silvertips are doing 650 ftlbs. That is a full power 10mm. There are hotter rounds but a 175gr bullet dumping 650 ftlbs is solid 10mm power.
Are you getting your information from the Winchester specs, or have you actually shot the Silvertip ammo over a chronograph? I ask because I have heard numerious times that in actual shooting the Winchester ammo doesn't reach the claimed velocity, therefor it also doesn't produce the claimed energy.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 11:59 PM   #60
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,325
Quote:
Falcon642 posted
with no gas losses around the cylinder and through the cylinder gap, you can easily add another 150 fps to every .357 load.
From all the data I've read about velocity loses due to the cylinder/barrel gap, 150 FPS lost is at the extreme high end.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 02:34 AM   #61
Smit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2012
Posts: 335
Recently acquired a Glock 20. Love the gun and the round. Here is my subjective list of pros and cons

Pros:
powerful round
fun to shoot
not everyone and their brother has one

Cons:
costly
snappy recoil
__________________
"Vegetarian, an old Indian word for bad hunter."
Smit is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 03:02 AM   #62
IMightBeWrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2009
Posts: 618
The 10mm is popular, it just isn't mainstream. People who like fun shooters like 10mm and they also fill a niche for those who want an auto with power that rivals some magnum cartridges.

If you were to ask me for my much more subjective opinion on the matter, I'd say that the 10mm, and the .40 for that matter, are really just compromise cartridges. When I say that, I don't mean that they fill a gap (i.e., .40 being between 9mm and .45). What I really mean is that those who believe that bullets win fights are the ones who tend to buy pistols chambered in them. But the cartridge you choose doesn't win a fight. The magazine you loaded into your pistol before tucking it in your waistband doesn't either. The rounds that win the fight are the countless thousands of rounds you threw down range in training. The 9mm is more than enough punch for any shooter out there in a good load. If ball ammo is the only option, then go .45. That is, as I said, my subjective opinion!
__________________
"Intelligence is nothing more than discussing things with others. Limitless wisdom comes of this." - 山本 常朝
IMightBeWrong is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 05:50 AM   #63
Amsdorf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri
Posts: 849
Some real wisdom there ...
Amsdorf is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 06:46 AM   #64
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,200
I shoot and test all my ammo through my chrono being a reloading super freak. I shoot all my carry rounds into wet newspaper. I like to see how well the factory loads compare to my reloads. I literally would load 500-800 10mm rounds a week in my competitive days in IPSC. The Silvertips in general that I have tested (9,40,45lc, 10mm ) always open up to a big diameter. The 10mm is going at the top end of what the ST bullet needs and shed its jacket half way through the wet paper but the energy transfer is awesome and leaves a large flat bullet. Sierra 135jhp going over 1400fps are explosive in wet paper and leave a hole as big as your fist. I have even hunted some smaller critters with my 135jhp loads and there was nothing left but hair and pieces. If I don't want over penetration, then the 135jhp is my round.

Are you getting your information from the Winchester specs, or have you actually shot the Silvertip ammo over a chronograph? I ask because I have heard numerious times that in actual shooting the Winchester ammo doesn't reach the claimed velocity, therefor it also doesn't produce the claimed energy.

Last edited by Mystro; September 25, 2012 at 06:52 AM.
Mystro is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 07:54 AM   #65
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
With regard to 10mm vs .357 in semis

Bear in mind that many people complain about grip frame length in 10mm / .45ACP. Those people probably can't hold a Coonan. Magnum revolver cartridges require magnum grips (Coonan, Desert Eagle ).
MLeake is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 08:23 AM   #66
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
"Are you getting your information from the Winchester specs, or have you actually shot the Silvertip ammo over a chronograph? I ask because I have heard numerious times that in actual shooting the Winchester ammo doesn't reach the claimed velocity, therefor it also doesn't produce the claimed energy."
In a 5" Colt Delta Elite the Winchester Silver Tips will go around 1,200 fps (Ballistics By the Inch tested it at 1,209 fps) for 568 ft lbs. Not sure what Winchester claims, but clearly it's not getting 650 ft lbs..
jmortimer is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 08:41 AM   #67
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
Quote:
I've often wondered why superfluous cartridges are denigrated in pistols but practically worshipped in rifles.

I like the .40
Not me. I guess I'm not much fun in this deparment. I feel the .223 and 30-06 are the total CF amory any sportman needs until you get to the big-big game department.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 10:16 AM   #68
Mike_Fontenot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 258
Quote:
I do have experience with the 155gr Gold Dots (chrono below). I agree---the problems with the bullet 'failure' would be worse, but the wound channel 1-10'' deep would likely be nastier as well---just depends on what you're looking for.

I would stay away from the XTP in that load. The XTPs a good bullet but it's not bonded so I'd imagine you'd see some serious bullet failure. The GD bullet is regarded as one of the best on the market (if not the best) and it has issues at that velocity....
Thanks for that info. I'm very impressed with your testing procedures.
Mike_Fontenot is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 10:30 AM   #69
Mike_Fontenot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 258
Quote:
The 10mm is a niche handgun. It's for those who want a semi-auto with the performance of a .357 or .41 magnum in a cartridge designed for a semi-auto.
I don't know where the claim that 10mm is close to .41Mag comes from ... they are nowhere near close in power.

Underwood's .41Mag 210gr JHP (with XTP bullets) are specified at 1135 ft-lb and 1560 ft/s.

Underwood's 10mm 155gr JHP (with either GD or XTP bullets) are specified at 775 ft-lb and 1500 ft/s.
Mike_Fontenot is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 10:32 AM   #70
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
^ Right the 10mm is right below the .357 and .41 mag is way, way more gun.
jmortimer is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 10:38 AM   #71
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,200
Elevation, humidity, and tempature plays a big role in your velocity figures. Just because you at that particular time and weather conditions can't get the advertised 1290fps doesn't mean that is what everyone gets at their location. If you got with in 100fps of the advertised figure, you are doing well.
I have seen a big difference in my IPSC loads pending on the temp tested. These are all factored in to make "major power" level. I had rounds designed for below 50 degrees and rounds for above 50 degrees when testing before each match figuring a 25 fps buffer. Some powders are more tempature sensitive than others.
Mystro is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 10:41 AM   #72
Mike_Fontenot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 258
Quote:
Once you put the .357 in a semi auto, the only advantage the 10mm has left is capacity, and a new Coonan doesn't cost much more than a new Delta Elite.
But it's important to understand that the above comment has nothing to do with the .357Sig round. The maximum .357Sig loads are significantly below the maximum .357Magnum and 10mm loads:

Underwood's .357Sig 125gr JHP is specified at 604 ft-lb and 1475 ft/s.

Underwood's .357Mag 158gr JHP is specified at 763 ft-lb and 1475 ft/s.

Underwood's 10mm 155gr JHP is specified at 775 ft-lb and 1500 ft/s.
Mike_Fontenot is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 12:11 PM   #73
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Mike Fontenot, like I said in a previous post, you can put .357 Magnum (not Sig) in a Coonan or Desert Eagle. The problem with those is the very long grip frame required for the magazine well to accept a .357 Magnum (not Sig, which is a 9mm length) magazine.

The major advantage, IMO, for revolvers in large magnum calibers is that the grip can be virtually any size, since it has no mag well.

Edit: the advantage to 10mm in autos is that the cartridge OAL is the same as for the .45ACP, so 10mm grip frames tend to be the same size as .45ACP grip frames.

2nd Edit: the .357Sig was designed to emulate the performance of a .357 Magnum 125gr load from a 3" barrel, in a cartridge that could work with a 9mm size grip frame. The Sig is not capable of handling .357 standard (158 and 180) or specialty (200) grain hunting loads. The Sig cannot emulate a .357 Magnum from a 6" barrel, either.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 12:31 PM   #74
Mike_Fontenot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 258
Quote:
MLeake wrote:
[...]
Good summary. My only point was that some people might misunderstand the phrase "when you put a .357 into a semi-auto" to mean .357Sig. I realize you didn't mean that, but some people might have misunderstood.

I had assumed until recently that .357Sig had the same performance as .357Mag, but it doesn't. I would actually prefer the .357Sig to 9mm or .40S&W, though, but I don't have any of those calibers.

The .357Mag casing IS very long ... actually MUCH longer than it needs to be to hold the powder ... the Federal Hi-Shoks that I shoot in my .357 scandium/titanium snubby use just a very small fraction of the case volume for the powder. The casing is that long purely for historical reasons, to prevent it from being accidentally used in a .38Special revolver (and likewise for the .38Special casing itself, because of earlier, shorter, weaker .38-caliber rounds that pre-dated .38Special).
Mike_Fontenot is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 12:50 PM   #75
David White
Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2012
Posts: 88
Here is a good site for ammo tests.
Check out this review for the 10mm!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RmNL30om6Eo
David White is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13908 seconds with 8 queries