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Old September 23, 2012, 12:46 PM   #26
plouffedaddy
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Let them , those that do the bashing will probably never shoot targets anywhere close to what you have posted above.
Could not agree more!

So many people say 'x' or 'y' gun isn't accurate enough, then when I see them at the range they can't keep a 8'' group at 100m with an AR. Then they go shoot a mini or AK and pronounce the gun 'inaccurate.' Riiiigggghhhtttt.
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:03 PM   #27
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Shooting accurately on the range is great, and something most ARs do well (but yours shoots very well for a carbine). But once you start pushing them to run hard in adverse conditions, and shoot them a lot at once, the added features and better manufacturing of higher end guns will prove that it does make a difference.
allaroundhunter,
Please provide a link to where the S&W Sports are compared against top tier ARs, all being "run hard"....and the data indicates there is some kind of a notable difference.

You indicated this has happened.....a link to just the summary would be appreciated.

Thanks
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by arizona98tj View Post
allaroundhunter,
Please provide a link to where the S&W Sports are compared against top tier ARs, all being "run hard"....and the data indicates there is some kind of a notable difference.

You indicated this has happened.....a link to just the summary would be appreciated.

Thanks
I never indicated that it happened, I was explaining the metaphor that Rebs did not understand. Also, I never once bashed the S&W, I do not own a Colt, nor do I have plans of buying one anytime soon. I didn't even say that the manufacturing processes made higher end ARs "better", I stated that it makes a difference.

The Sport is a fine AR, there is nothing wrong with it.... What I constantly wonder, is why people feel like they have to defend their purchase of a more budget minded AR to everyone else? Jeez....

If I have time to look up the sport being run against a high end AR, I will. But for the time being I am plenty busy dealing with medical issues and exams.

Sent from my HTC One X
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Old September 23, 2012, 02:32 PM   #29
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I guess I was just confused when you stated the following:

Quote:
He is saying that you have not pushed the Sport to its breaking point to see how it fares against a higher end gun. Yes, for its price the sport gives you a lot of bang for your buck, but no, it cannot compare to a higher end gun when you start pushing them to their limits.
When you wrote that the Sport cannot compare to a higher end gun when you start pushing them to their limits, I simply assumed you had some actual facts on which this could be substantiated.

I don't own a Sport so I'm not defending one. But if I were to buy yet another AR, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get a Sport. I've found nothing in print that has convinced me otherwise....and that was why I asked you for a reference....had you had one, it would have been the first one I had a chance to read.

Thank you for your time.
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Old September 23, 2012, 03:06 PM   #30
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When you wrote that the Sport cannot compare to a higher end gun when you start pushing them to their limits, I simply assumed you had some actual facts on which this could be substantiated.

I don't own a Sport so I'm not defending one. But if I were to buy yet another AR, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get a Sport. I've found nothing in print that has convinced me otherwise....and that was why I asked you for a reference....had you had one, it would have been the first one I had a chance to read.
Understood, that was a poor choice of wording and it does make it seem that either I have experience with both of these rifles where I don't or that I have seen information where someone else has, which I have not.

I did however do a brief search of the features of the sport. A major component that is requested for an AR that is going to be run in adverse conditions is a chrome-lined barrel to aid in reliability. The sport does not have this, whereas many "high end" guns do. However, the Sport's lack of a chrome lined barrel most likely also aides in its accuracy. Many things are a give and take, and this is one of them.

I was also not implying that you were dead-set on defending the sport, I understand your position. I am not dead-set on proving that it is a bad or "low end" rifle, because it most definitely is no where close to being either of those, regardless of its price.


Quote:
I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance.
While the Sport is a fine AR, a statement like this is just inciting the type of thread that this has turned into. It very well could have stayed positive and everyone would have continued to compliment the Sport and the accuracy that the OP has achieved with his; but in essence, he took the first swing at "high end" guns.
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Old September 23, 2012, 03:26 PM   #31
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IMO, the lack of a chrome lined barrel is certainly not a negative as far as the Sport is concerned.

Smith & Wesson uses the Melonite process in the Sport's barrel. It is not a process that adds or plates material onto the barrel surface but rather interacts with the barrel itself and makes for one heck of a nice surface, IMO. I've spent a few hours reading up on the process and haven't found anything negative about it from a consumer aspect. It is said to be as resistive to harsh environments, primers, etc. as is the chrome surface. As you indicated, the 5R barrel is more accurate and per the information I've read, the Melonite process makes it just as durable.

As I said before, I've spent time researching the Sport and aside from someone's personal opinion which I dismiss as just that, I've yet to find anything keeping it from being at the top of my list for a future purchase.
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Old September 23, 2012, 03:34 PM   #32
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Shooting accurately on the range is great, and something most ARs do well (but yours shoots very well for a carbine). But once you start pushing them to run hard in adverse conditions, and shoot them a lot at once, the added features and better manufacturing of higher end guns will prove that it does make a difference.
This is where the thread went south
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Old September 23, 2012, 04:30 PM   #33
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The thread went south because you didn't understand a metaphor and I had to explain it to you?

I'm sorry, but that is not where it went south. It went south when you incited a competition between your gun and others by saying this:

Quote:
I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance.
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Old September 23, 2012, 04:47 PM   #34
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I think melonited barrels will become the standard within the next decade. I agree that you don't lose anything vs chrome lining unless you're shooting corrosive ammo; plus it doesn't chip, cover unevenly, nor (possibly) diminish accuracy.

That said, all but one of my ARs is chrome lined
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Old September 23, 2012, 05:26 PM   #35
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The information I read indicated corrosive primers were no more of a problem for a Melonite treated barrel than for a chrome-lined barrel.

Obviously, time will tell. Were I using a Sport, it would make no difference as I don't shoot corrosive ammo anyway.
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Old September 23, 2012, 06:58 PM   #36
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I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance.
If you read this and comprehend what is being said, I am not saying the Sport is better than any other AR simply stating it is as good as any other AR. I stand by that.

Are you upset because you bought one of the higher price ones and are maybe not completely happy with it ?

Last edited by rebs; September 23, 2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:12 PM   #37
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Here is what I said back in post #28 to answer the question that you asked.....

Quote:
Also, I never once bashed the S&W, I do not own a Colt, nor do I have plans of buying one anytime soon. I didn't even say that the manufacturing processes made higher end ARs "better", I stated that it makes a difference.

Quote:
Are you upset because you bought one of the higher price ones and are maybe not completely happy with it ?
No, not at all actually. I have not bought a "high end" AR. My "expensive" AR, is a Doublestar lower, with a Stag 3G upper that I am currently waiting on.

I am not upset about any of this, I was just trying to explain to you the analogy that you didn't understand and this has just snowballed....

Again, we have been past all of this if you want to continue with your thread....but you still seem to be dead set on proving something about your Sport...
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:25 PM   #38
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I own a colt and a bushmaster... A colt is also my issue weapon. I think it's hilarious how so many people talk about how their top tier AR would be way better in an actual combat situation. Yes... high volumes of fire, sand, dust, dirt, rain, getting dropped and whatever else happens play a role in the AR's ability to perform and some just do better in those situations. It is just that USUALLY people who talk smack about rifles and have all the "gear" could not run a mile without having a heart attack. No gun is perfect but before you run your mouth about a weapons ability make sure you can back it up. The number one mod anyone can make to their weapon system is to get in shape. What good is a fat body with a top end AR when a SHTF scenario comes up? No I am not a prepper nor do I believe a SHTF scenario will be seen in my lifetime but the people who praise their rifles ability usually resort to saying it would outlast the lower end rifle in a surivial, shtf, combat...whatever situation they fantasize about.
RANT COMPLETE haha
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Old September 24, 2012, 07:02 AM   #39
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No, not at all actually. I have not bought a "high end" AR. My "expensive" AR, is a Doublestar lower, with a Stag 3G upper that I am currently waiting on.

I am not upset about any of this, I was just trying to explain to you the analogy that you didn't understand and this has just snowballed....

Again, we have been past all of this if you want to continue with your thread....but you still seem to be dead set on proving something about your Sport...
I bought the Sport for a range and plinking gun, not for a SHTF gun. I have nothing to prove about it and was only saying it's accuracy is excellent. For me its as good as any of them, it may or may not be the gun for others.
Your right this has snowballed into a mess, I am sorry I started the thread. I should have kept it to myself. If I offended you or anyone else I apologize.
I only started the thread to show the groups the Sport is capable of with hand loads. I had no intention of saying the Sport is the best AR out there.
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Old September 24, 2012, 04:46 PM   #40
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Rebs - you could say that the Sport is the best AR15 for you, based on your accuracy with your handloads!

Seriously though, you have a very accurate carbine there. Most people would be proud to shoot that with their bolt guns.
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Old September 24, 2012, 06:10 PM   #41
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No I am not a prepper nor do I believe a SHTF scenario will be seen in my lifetime but the people who praise their rifles ability usually resort to saying it would outlast the lower end rifle in a surivial, shtf, combat...whatever situation they fantasize about.
Interesting rant, nobody here thinks that operator skill and fitness isn't the most important performance determinant of the weapon though. I feel like everybody agrees on that and nobody brought it up until you did. Either way, dismissing differences in design or manufacturing quality as trivial isn't spot on.

Here's an example. In the mountain west, serious hunters may expose their weapons to some fairly crappy conditions for a few days at a time before going back to their vehicle and heading home. In other words, not a fantasy.

When you throw in the addition of the suppressor I use on my hunting weapon (even more carbon fouling), I'm not going to use a weapon that doesn't have a hard chromed chamber, no forward assist and the old school carbine gas/receiver extension (M&P sport). Malfunctions with either that or my BCM/Vltor weapon would both be low, but I'd be willing to bet with a suppressor that the MRBS would be at least 5-6 times higher on the Sport. Even without a suppressor, MRBS would be higher once you remove cleaning from the equation for a few magazines. Do a little research into AR-15 design considerations and you'll know it without even having to test it.

I'll agree 99% of civilian AR owners will never need anything more than a M&P Sport, but there is real utility to be gained in the design and manufacturing quality of higher end weapons for some users.


As a side note, nobody talked smack on anyone's gear as far as I know. OP said it was the equal of any AR, and I disagreed without making a derisive comment. Everyone is easily offended these days, as soon as you say something is superior to something else, that's a derisive comment to the item that isn't superior. Last I checked, a person can acknowledge two items are quality and still acknowledge the superiority of one of them. Not surprising considering how low the standard of discourse on this forum is.

Last edited by 10mmAuto; September 24, 2012 at 06:17 PM.
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Old September 24, 2012, 07:05 PM   #42
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That's fine 10mm, but we're comparing a $630 AR to a $1200 one. Of course you'd expect the more expensive one to have added features. If the Sport cost $1200, then we'd have a more even comparison and valid argument.

The bottom line is, for the price point the Sport excells in it's intended purpose, an entry level AR.
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Old September 24, 2012, 07:35 PM   #43
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Takes me back

The last time I let body get in the way of my gun admiring, was my "BO and the STRIKER" poster.

Last edited by Strafer Gott; September 24, 2012 at 07:45 PM.
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Old September 25, 2012, 05:51 PM   #44
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That's fine 10mm, but we're comparing a $630 AR to a $1200 one. Of course you'd expect the more expensive one to have added features. If the Sport cost $1200, then we'd have a more even comparison and valid argument.

The bottom line is, for the price point the Sport excells in it's intended purpose, an entry level AR.
Cool story bro - too bad "best or equal to any AR at the price point" isn't what the OP said that started this train of discussion.
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