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Old September 24, 2012, 08:47 AM   #26
btmj
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Chris_B is on to something...

I tried again with the AR. I could not do it no matter how hard I pulled the rifle into my shoulder with my right hand. I could keep the stock from falling off my shoulder, but there is no way the sights would stay "on target"

However, I can keep my Winchester Model 12 shot gun on my shoulder, holding it with just my right hand. I notice that the stance for a shotgun puts my right elbow well underneath the stock, and my body is only slightly bladed to the target. I am also crouched.

With the rifle (any rifle) I am fully errect, most of my weight is on my right foot, and bladed 45 degrees or more to the target. Left elbow directly under the forearm, and right elbow 90 degrees out (horizontal). I notice that I am fully supporting the weight of the rifle with my left hand, and my right hand is relaxed and pulling into my shoulder just enough to maintain shoulder contact. I don't think about it, this is how I have always shot a rifle, it is how I was taught.

If I pull my right elbow under the weapon, and hold it more like a shotgun, there is no problem supporting it with just my right hand. But that does not seem like a very accurate way to shoot...
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Old September 24, 2012, 09:46 AM   #27
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Quote:
Ergonomics is a multidisciplinary field incorporating contributions from psychology, engineering, industrial design, graphic design, statistics, operations research and anthropometry. In essence it is the study of designing equipment and devices that fit the human body and its cognitive abilities.
Last two words.

I would say the AR is a highly ergonomic. It can easily be changed by the end user to suit the end users cognitive abilities.
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Old September 24, 2012, 08:45 PM   #28
Malamute
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I think the comment about the line of sight being higher isn't about the stock, its about the height of the sights over the line of the barrel. The sights being higher than the barrel mean that to get over a berm or cover, you are more exposed than if the sights were closer to the barrel, and you werent as tall above the cover to use the sights. I dont know how much difference that makes to others, it doesn't much to me, I hardly ever get into firefights, and dont anticipate basing my gun choices on that issue. I like the general ergonomics of the AR types. I was surprised the first time I tried a shot at a running rabbit and scored the first round. I repeated that many times when I fooled around with them. It's all academic to me, I don't own an AR.

The AR isn't alone in the height of the sights over the barrel, the AK preceded it by several years.

I agree with Kraigs assesment of ergonomics. Many guns seem to fit me well without much drama, and a few don't. The ones that fit well are easier to use well, and are generally quicker to use.
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Old September 25, 2012, 03:52 AM   #29
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I'mnot a veteran,or particularly skilled at any shooting discipline at the moment,but I will suggest this:The classic,elbow high offhand shooting position works good!!Except for one thing,it is being discussed in the context of rapid magazine changes.

I suggest if you need a rapid magazine change and this is about serious purposes....there are a lot of better options than the classic marksman offhand....like getting some cover?And maybe,if you are on your hind legs,be moving and shooting?Stock short,elbows covering ribs?

I'm thinking,if someone is shooting back that standing still stuff does not work out for a prairie dog.
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Old September 25, 2012, 09:28 AM   #30
kraigwy
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HiBC, you don't need to be in combat to realize the benefit of the quick mag. change of the AR.

They are quite popular in 3 gun and multi gun events where you shoot, move to cover or another position and magazine changes are required.

You shoot, and while moving you hit the mag release with the thumb on your shooting hand while the support had grabs for another magazine. The empty mag falls from the rifle under its own weight and the left or support hand slaps another mag in the weld.

No other rifle I know of is as fast or as easy when it comes with changing magazines on the run, without looking.

I believe that is why they are so popular in competition.

It worked the same way in combat, the point man, empties his clip full auto and falls to the ground as he reloads, the slack (guy behind the point man) does the same thing when the point man drops, then normally (the way we did it) the '60 gunner is right behind the slack and is now ready to move up and take up his position while the rest of the squad forms a line.

Again, I've never seen a rifle that worked better in these cases.

I've done most of my match shooting with a M14 or M1A, you have to take your shooting hand off the pistol grip to change magazines. In high power that's not a big problem.

The way I did it was to fire my first two rounds, roll to the left a tad and change mags while I'm looking through the spotting scope at my first two hits to see if I need a sight change. But in this case I'm not running to cover or to a new firing point. Plus I have 60 seconds to get in position, shoot two, look load and shoot 8 more. Thats a lot of time, in 3 gun or multi gun you don't get the luxury of that much time.

As too the AR forcing your head higher, putting you in danger.......all I can say its a none issue.............probably the dumbest thing I ever heard about ARs.
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Old September 26, 2012, 05:03 AM   #31
raimius
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Quote:
Chris_B is on to something...

I tried again with the AR. I could not do it no matter how hard I pulled the rifle into my shoulder with my right hand. I could keep the stock from falling off my shoulder, but there is no way the sights would stay "on target"

However, I can keep my Winchester Model 12 shot gun on my shoulder, holding it with just my right hand. I notice that the stance for a shotgun puts my right elbow well underneath the stock, and my body is only slightly bladed to the target. I am also crouched.

With the rifle (any rifle) I am fully errect, most of my weight is on my right foot, and bladed 45 degrees or more to the target. Left elbow directly under the forearm, and right elbow 90 degrees out (horizontal). I notice that I am fully supporting the weight of the rifle with my left hand, and my right hand is relaxed and pulling into my shoulder just enough to maintain shoulder contact. I don't think about it, this is how I have always shot a rifle, it is how I was taught.

If I pull my right elbow under the weapon, and hold it more like a shotgun, there is no problem supporting it with just my right hand. But that does not seem like a very accurate way to shoot...
Supporting the firearm from underneath is going to be easier than supporting it from the horizontal.

An "elbows in" stance is taught by a lot of mil/leo instructors. Keeping your elbows in provides a narrower stance so you don't bump into things as easily, and you present a slightly smaller target. If you slightly crank down on the rifle like twisting a towel to wring it out, you might get a little more stability. It probably won't be as stable as the traditional olympic/competition stance, but it shouldn't be a whole lot less.
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Old October 1, 2012, 11:40 PM   #32
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Most of the threads I read where Kraigwy has posted, I usually keep my booger pickers off the keyboard, because he usually posts something very similar to what I would, except he's smarter and more experience than I. This time I feel like I need to add my little bit.

Definition of Ergonomics. Design factors, intended to maximize productivity by minimizing operator fatigue and discomfort.

On the M16, the saftey selector, mag release, and trigger are accessible by the right shooting hand. ( Sorry lefties, it's a right hand world...)

The bolt release is just behind the off hand, easily engaged without losing sight picture.

The only reason to break sight picture on the M16 is to pull the charging handle, and IMHO, that should be done before going into a hostile environment.

The only thing I personally dont like about the M16 is the forward assist. Should just have a bolt handle on the side, like every other battle rifle worth its salt.

Overall, the weapon is light weight, can be operated with a minimum of movement, is easily adjustable and mission adaptable. It is the essence of ergonomics in a weapons platform.
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Old October 2, 2012, 07:07 AM   #33
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Should just have a bolt handle on the side, like every other battle rifle worth its salt.
While this wasn't applicable at the time it was designed, the rear charging handle is a serious benefit with modern optics and accessories.

I have access to a couple of SCARs (L&H) and that reciprocating side charging handle is not as "ergonomic" for me as the rear charging handle. (Technically I am baby sitting them at my house right now)

It gets in the way, you will bang your knuckles on optics when charging causing you to let go of the handle before you get it all the way back, it can get caught on chest harnesses and pull it slightly out of battery (it usually goes back but sometimes it doesn't), it pokes you when you are walking with it slung, unless you move it to the right side.

When I first heard about it, I thought it was a great idea because my 1st EBR was an AK and I liked the charging handle. Once I got to try and use one with optics on the SCAR, I lost my enthusiasm.
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Old October 2, 2012, 09:50 AM   #34
Malamute
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When I first heard about it, I thought it was a great idea.... Once I got to try and use one with optics on the SCAR, I lost my enthusiasm.

Interesting how things in real life use don't always work out like we thought they would.
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Old October 2, 2012, 10:48 AM   #35
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Interesting how things in real life use don't always work out like we thought they would.
Yes it is.

Luckily it was my brother's money spent on them and not mine.



That being said, I would take that SCAR 17 over any .308 AR I have ever picked up just based on weight alone. I would have to find a work around for the charging handle.
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