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Old September 3, 2012, 10:21 PM   #1
gamecaller1
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Lake City Brass

I know this question has been asked a bunch. I have been loading winchester brass for a 308. I think I have come across a good deal on lake city 308 brass once fired in the bulk. I am getting outstanding groups with the winchester. With that said, is it possoble to get the same results with the lake city using the same load I have worked up with the winchester brass. I am wanting to load a bunch to store up. Thanks for any advise on this matter
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Old September 3, 2012, 11:08 PM   #2
Bart B.
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I doubt you'll get accuracy with the LC brass as good you do with the Winchester stuff. That brass was probably fired from a machine gun and its case heads are no doubt quite a bit out of square as the bolts in those full auto rifles are not even close to match quality and typically more out of square than commercial rifles have. Resizing those fired cases will not square up the case heads. And unsquare case heads is a well known cause of accuracy problems.
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Old September 3, 2012, 11:23 PM   #3
Marco Califo
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Once Fired Military 308

A bulk deal on 308 once fired may not be such a bargain. Once Fired Military 308 are a lot of work before you can shoot them. Machine gun fired are shot in very loose machine gun chambers designed to maintain high cyclic fire. They are "puffed out" and require a lot of effort to re-size. I did 200 today and had very smooth work using Lucas Lithium Grease http://www.lucasoil.com/products/dis...id=14&loc=show as sizing lube. Then you will need to trim them for the same reason. Also, you will need to process the primer pockets to remove the military crimp, if you didn't pay some one to do that already.
With once fired, you are not buying 1,000 of the same case. Who knows what kind of consistency you will get? 308 vary more case to case than any other cartridge. Mil Spec will hold less than Win due to thicker brass. Just how much? Start sorting and weighing.
Yes, I use LC 308. But I also keep all my factory load empties and use those cases, too.
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Old September 4, 2012, 06:52 PM   #4
Jimro
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You can get good accuracy from LC brass, but unless you are willing to full length resize, trim, anneal (can be done first if you wish) then you are probably better off sticking with winchester.

For what it is worth, I load winchester brass for my bolt rifles, and LC brass for my semi autos. I get good accuracy with both.

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Old September 4, 2012, 11:35 PM   #5
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As already suggested once-shot LC brass is not all equal. Machine gun shot brass is pretty stretched out.

The brass I got was from a National Guard rifleman's training range. No machine guns there....unless you want to call fully automatic AR designs machine guns. If you can find a source for that, you have as good as you can get, unless you can swing the price for new unprimed & uncrimped LC brass available from some sources like Grafs, Midway, and others at times.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:32 AM   #6
F. Guffey
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Wouldn’t it be wonderful if a reloader had the ability to measure brass as in “That brass was probably fired from a machine gun” and “A bulk deal on 308 once fired may not be such a bargain. Once Fired Military 308 are a lot of work before you can shoot them”.

My favorite case? A case that was fired in a trashy Ol’ chamber or a case that was fired fired in a machine gun, after that there is the 280 Remington cases for the 30/06 family of chambers all the way up to 35 Whelen.

Then there is the mystery, what is wrong with all the presses in use by reloaders that do not have the ability overcome a cases ability to resist sizing? Then there is the lack of ability of the reloader to determine the presses ability or lack of ability to size a case.

Then there is Cylinder Brass by R-P.

I have formed 308 Winchester/7.62 NATO cases from 30/06 cases cases, new commercial, once fired to military LC, SL, TW, etc., etc.. When a case whips my press I can determine ‘by how much’.

Difference in cases, I have found the biggest difference between 308 Commercial and LC military cases is in the length and diameter of the powder column.

Then there are all the lofty terms used to describe the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. I do not need more brass, I have all the brass I will every be able to use, but, when I needed brass I went to the range and purchases brass that was fired in ugly chambers, not something a reloader would do but I measured the length of the cases from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case, to most that is a mindless effort in busy work. But for me is was a matter of not waking up in a new world everyday and starting over. I measure the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber first, in an effort to reduce case travel I sized the cases to fit my chamber (chambers).

Again, I have one M1917 Eddystone with .016” added to the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, if any thought was given to the problem most would think fire to form would would be the answer, I form first then fire, I can form 280 Remington cases to fit the chamber, I can use cases that were fired in trashy old chambers, I know, the conditioned response is: The cases fired in the trashy old chamber stretched when fired, then we return to the top of this response “Wouldn’t it be wonderful if a reloader had the ability to measure brass etc..

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Old September 5, 2012, 04:50 PM   #7
Bart B.
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From CWO4 Billy Atkins, USAR Rifle Team Captain (some years ago).....

The US Army Reserve and Nat'l Guard rifle teams tried reloading their M118 match and commercial .308 Win. cases fired in M14NM's. None of them shot as accurate as new cases. M14NM's never had their bolt faces squared up so fired cases from them had out of square case heads; some worse than others. No reloading process squares them up. You could shoot them loaded to 30% to 40% over safe max pressure (same as proof loads) and that would square them up quite a bit. The USN Team tried it and got the same results in 7.62 NATO Garands. One other service team tried it and forgot about it, but I don't remember which one it was.

You can see how much out of square case heads are. Stand them bottom down in the V of a steel square taped to a table top then spin the case holding the case head in the V so it spins on its axis. Watch the case mouth from straight over it. Set up a magnifying glass over the case mouth and it's easier to see. Square case heads let the case mouth sping on its axis. Out of square ones makes the case mouth spin about someplace off the center of the case mouth.

However, it is good for stuff where best accuracy ain't one of the objectives.

Last edited by Bart B.; September 5, 2012 at 06:33 PM.
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Old September 5, 2012, 06:58 PM   #8
Edward429451
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I run LC brass in my M1A. It shoots good enough @100 to impress my friends, but not you guys. I get ~3-4" @100 typically, with groups ~ 2.5" on a good day. That's fine for my purposes.

You can tell the MG brass if you have a non-MG fired brass to sit beside it.
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Old September 5, 2012, 09:40 PM   #9
gamecaller1
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Thanks for your advise. I may order some for my ar 10, but from the information gathered here I think I will stick to the winchester brass for my savage.
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Old September 6, 2012, 09:17 AM   #10
F. Guffey
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“You can see how much out of square case heads are. Stand them bottom down in the V of a steel square taped to a table top then spin the case holding the case head in the V so it spins on its axis. Watch the case mouth from straight over it. Set up a magnifying glass over the case mouth and it's easier to see. Square case heads let the case mouth spring on its axis. Out of square ones makes the case mouth spin about someplace off the center of the case mouth”

“You can see how much out of square case heads are” I have the set up table. I have ‘V’ blocks in sets, I have height gages, last word/spot on gages, etc., Again, my favorite case is the case fired in a trashy old chamber, when checking a case head ‘for square’ I am finished before ‘the you’ person you are talking about locates all the tools.

“From CWO4 Billy Atkins, USAR Rifle Team Captain (some years ago)....” I will assume CWO4 Atkins is/was a reloader, I will assume a rifle that has not had the bolt faces squared is out of square, I will assume if bolt lugs are not squared they are out of square. I will assume no one indexed the case in the chamber before firing, I will assume the reloader/”benchrester” Indexed each of 12 rounds before firing and then reloaded all 12 rounds and started over with one difference, the difference? The 12 rounds were indexed in groups of 3 at 360 degree, 90 degree, 180 degree and 270 degree when fired. Again, the conversation always starts with after firing, no one starts with the effect the chamber had on on the case when fired, seems a benchrester/rifle team that reolads would know the difference in length between the length of the chamber and the length of the case, as in from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber and the length of the case from the head of the case and the shoulder of the case.

then I will assume they “the rifle team’ measured before and again after. Then there are the ‘benchresters’, I have no ideal how they get to the range without knowing anything about the rifle they are shooting, I could be shooting a $120.00 rifle, right there when I compare my $120.00 rifle to the $1,000 ++ the benchrester spent on their rifle I have to suspect there is a difference.

I am building 2 bench rest type rifles, with out wood and trigger I will have no more than $180.00 in each, the difference between me and the benchster? I will know the length of the chamber, I will know the length of the case, when fired I will know the effect the chamber had on the case.

Bench rersters full length size, full length sized is more accurate?

Again, I have a non-Weatherby rifle with a non Weatherby chamber (300 Win Mag), after 74 rounds of one brand of ammo it became a rifle that shot one hole groups a most accurate rifle, I have a Model 70 Winchester chambered in 300 Win Mag, with the same ammo it shot patterns, ‘it’ does not boil down to benchresters and full length sizing and or new ammo, or fired cases being restored to minimum.

The $120.00 rifle does not have all the inherent problems most rifles have, 12 different loads of 10 rounds each (new, once fired, 12 different bullets, commercial new and once fired and military cases with different dates), Each of the 12 groups could be covered with a quarter on one target and some groups shared the same hole. I purchase the rifle for parts in case it was not worth $120.00.

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Old September 23, 2012, 08:14 AM   #11
hooligan1
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My boy's and I went to our local range yesterday, (Lake City) and dad got lucky and found a bucket full of brass to go through, where I picked fifty or so .243 win, 30 or so 30-06, twenty .257 rob, and some .308. pretty good haul for me.
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Old September 23, 2012, 12:53 PM   #12
89blazin
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commercial .308 brass vs. LC brass

I shoot LC reloads out of my M1A, and they are the only brass I will use in it. I have a national match rifle and shoot sub-MOA with it. LC brass will require you to use 1-2 grains less powder due to the thicker case walls.
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