The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 20, 2012, 07:27 PM   #1
HKGuns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2005
Location: Bora Bora
Posts: 885
Sig Users - A Question

I read "No Easy Day" (great read btw) and was intrigued by the writer's assertion he didn't carry the issued SIG 9mm because when the pistol is jostled around the rounds tend to shift and get jumbled up in the magazines causing misfeeds.

I wonder if any SIG owners / carriers have ever experienced anything like this before? This sounds like a plausible failure mode and perhaps not one the average civilian shooter would experience? I've never owned a SIG as their controls layout doesn't work well for me.

I won't mention what he carries as that will only make this sound like a brand war, which it is not. If you've read the book you know what he carried.

Also, please don't turn this into a love / hate thread for or against the author.

Last edited by HKGuns; September 20, 2012 at 07:47 PM.
HKGuns is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 07:42 PM   #2
THORN74
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2010
Location: Chicago 'Burbs
Posts: 508
I'm a civvie shooter, but I have had a sig p226 for over 15years and never experianced what u or the author describe. On the contrary, my dog has been flawless from day one. Perhaps an operator/Leo might have a diff perspective, putting the gun thru more daily rigors..... but not me.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Last edited by THORN74; September 21, 2012 at 06:19 AM.
THORN74 is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 07:47 PM   #3
HKGuns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2005
Location: Bora Bora
Posts: 885
Just to be clear thorn, I'm not reporting it has happened to me. I've shot SIG's but never owned one.
HKGuns is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 07:48 PM   #4
BarryLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 2,498
I have carried P229 for the last couple of years almost daily and experienced zero issues. I generally shoot the rounds from my carry magazine at the range, so I suspect if this happened for me it would have shown up.

Now, there is absolutely no way to compare my daily activities to those of an elite Navy SEAL, but it seems if this was a legitimate issue we would have heard about it before now. Obviously everyone is going to have different preference and I suspect that is all this is - he just prefers a different gun. However, it would be interesting to hear from someone who has really put a P226/P228/P229 through extreme conditions.
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
- Milton Friedman
BarryLee is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 10:27 PM   #5
JustinBiscuit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 184
other Navy Seals seem to like it

Mark Owen is on his own on this one. Other Seals, both Howard Wasdin, (Seal Team Six) and Marcus Lattrull (Lone Survivor) both love it.

Wasdin says it saved his life
JustinBiscuit is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 10:40 PM   #6
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 3,815
In all my shooting of SIGs I have never experienced this problem. But I'm not a Navy Seal.

I've heard mixed reports about the author and his story, so I'd take the book with a grain of salt.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old September 21, 2012, 01:24 PM   #7
JKilbreth
Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 92
Don't know if anyone even READ the OP, but his post has NOTHING to do with the author or the book, only with a suspected gun issue.

I have a SIG P220-R, and haven't had a feed issue due to jostled rounds, but to echo previous posts, I'm no SEAL. I do carry my SIG, so it sees the average jostle from pedestrian walking, but other than that, I have no extreme rattle test to offer.

SIGs are notoriously reliable and built well, and I have no reason to foresee any feed/magazine issues based off of my personal experience and the manufacturer's reputation.
JKilbreth is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 01:30 PM   #8
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 3,815
Quote:
When Tunnel Rat and I agree its got to be true.
Lol, touche. In honesty I agree with you more times than not. Just don't tell anyone.

I also agree with your sentiments here. I've had the immense privilege to work with some individuals in that community. Those I knew did their job and were happy in the success they had and never felt any need to brag about it or even talk about it. To me that gives even less credence to the author.

Quote:
Don't know if anyone even READ the OP, but his post has NOTHING to do with the author or the book, only with a suspected gun issue.
Not it really does. He's talking about a point that was brought up by the author in that book. It has everything to do with that and the credibility of that individual.

If a man who claimed to be a doctor said sugar cause lung tumors, but you had strong doubts that the man was actually a doctor in the first place, would you really be that worried about his claims?
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old September 21, 2012, 01:49 PM   #9
dgludwig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Location: North central Ohio
Posts: 5,017
My question is, if it's even possible for this to happen ("...when the pistol is jostled around the rounds tend to shift and get jumbled up in the magazines causing misfeeds..."), is it more likely for it to occur with a SIG pistol than it would with other pistols of its genre (i.e., the Beretta Model 92)-which the author is apparently claiming?

Quote:
I won't mention what he carries as that will only make this sound like a brand war, which it is not. If you've read the book you know what he carried.
I didn't read the book (and probably won't) but it would be interesting for some of us to know which pistol he decided on and why-and not for the purpose of starting a "brand war".
__________________
ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED
...Aristotle
NRA Benefactor Life Member
dgludwig is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 01:53 PM   #10
Departed402
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 828
Quote:
I didn't read the book (and probably won't) but it would be interesting for some of us to know which pistol he decided on and why-and not for the purpose of starting a "brand war".
I, as I am sure most of us are, am very interested in what the best-of-the-best use. As far as what the author chose over the SIG I'll give you a hint: the OP's name is "HKGuns"
__________________
Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast.
Departed402 is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 01:57 PM   #11
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,089
British Small Arms made Triumph and BSA motorcycles. All the BSA riders just knew Triumphs were made from BSA scrap, and vice versa. Now that's a brand war. This stuff with Sigs and HK's isn't quite as bad, but it's close enough. I happen to like them both. You know what the clearance is in magazines. How much room to move around is there. I know guys that rap ar mags before locking and loading, probably something they saw in a movie. Rim lock is not even a possibility. Gasp! Sometimes a bad mag is just a bad mag.
Strafer Gott is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 03:02 PM   #12
wgsigs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 200
Quote:
Don't know if anyone even READ the OP, but his post has NOTHING to do with the author or the book, only with a suspected gun issue.
True, except it seems the author is the only person to have experienced this problem and brought it up. And I'm sure most of us aren't, and have never been, Navy Seals.
wgsigs is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 03:35 PM   #13
Woody55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2012
Location: East Texas
Posts: 407
I've had a SIG P226 for a long time and have never had a problem like this.

And I'm not a SEAL. I like Otters though.
Woody55 is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 05:04 PM   #14
HKGuns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2005
Location: Bora Bora
Posts: 885
Quote:
True, except it seems the author is the only person to have experienced this problem and brought it up.
We don't know that now do we, which is why I asked the question.

I guess I should have known better. Moderators please delete the disparaging remarks or just lock the thread.

I like Otters as well Woody.

Last edited by HKGuns; September 21, 2012 at 09:25 PM.
HKGuns is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 07:51 PM   #15
iMagUdspEllr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2009
Posts: 365
"...when the pistol is jostled around the rounds tend to shift and get jumbled up in the magazines causing misfeeds."

I do not have a Sig P226 magazine to examine. However, because they are designed to feed and function exactly the same as just about every other semi-auto pistol magazine, I'm willing to assert that this isn't true. And, if it is true, every other semi-auto pistol magazine has the potential to fail the same way.

I would like to have a more precise description of the misfeeds. Are they occuring upon chambering the first round, half-way through the emptying of the magazine, et cetera? How far does the round make it along its path into the chamber? I don't know if the author described the failures in such detail. But, maybe the author did, so I'm asking.

I would really have to test it with a Sig P226, but I doubt the recoil spring would be too weak to shove the nose of the bullet up the feed ramp and into the chamber regardless of the position (forward or aft) of the top round in the magazine. Now, if the rounds jiggle around so much that the top round in the magazine ends up so far forward that it prevents insertion into the magazine well, then I might buy that. But, that isn't a "misfeed", so that doesn't seem like what the author is describing.
__________________
Rifle: Tavor, Custom AR-15
Pistols: Colt Python, XD(M) 4.5" .40, Glock 19, M&P 9mm, Walther PPQ First Edition 9mm, Sig Sauer P229 Scorpion 9mm, Browning Buck Mark
iMagUdspEllr is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 08:00 PM   #16
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 468
I carried a SIG P226 in 9mm for just over a decade with one of my LE employers. It went everywhere I did during duty- in the cruiser, outta the cruiser, foot chases, fights, falls on icy surfaces during the winter, even used it a couple of times as an impact weapon (that's another story) and never had a problem with it during quals using the ammo that sat in the magazines prior to blowing it off. In short- it's not an issue.

I suspect that the "issue" was simply the author's use of "literary license" perhaps to make the story interesting...
__________________
My favorite "gun" book -

QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION
481 is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 09:47 PM   #17
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,956
It's theoretically possible for really severe impacts to misalign rounds in a double-stack magazine if the magazine isn't fully loaded. Can't say that I've ever heard if it happening in the real world.

If the magazine is fully loaded, there's no room for the rounds to become misaligned unless the magazine is actually physically deformed in some manner.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 10:19 PM   #18
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 3,815
Quote:
And, if it is true, every other semi-auto pistol magazine has the potential to fail the same way.
Bingo
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old September 21, 2012, 11:56 PM   #19
iMagUdspEllr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2009
Posts: 365
@JohnKSa: Yes, but would it matter if some of the cartridges have the nose of the bullet touching the front wall of the magazine and some fully seated to the rear?
__________________
Rifle: Tavor, Custom AR-15
Pistols: Colt Python, XD(M) 4.5" .40, Glock 19, M&P 9mm, Walther PPQ First Edition 9mm, Sig Sauer P229 Scorpion 9mm, Browning Buck Mark
iMagUdspEllr is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 12:22 AM   #20
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,956
I don't think it matters. If the magazine is full, there's no room for the rounds to become misaligned.

If they're significantly shorter than the magazine they could move back and forth in the magazine, but they would have to be ridiculously short before their position relative to the front or back of the magazine would allow the rounds to misalign.

If the magazine isn't full, then you could, theoretically, bounce things around enough to let the rounds get loose enough to misalign. That would happen regardless of whether the rounds can move back and forth a little in the magazine.

Again, I haven't heard of this happening in the real world, and to the extent that it is possible, I can't understand how it would be something that's peculiar only to SIG magazines. It would apply to any double-column magazine unless there's something I'm completely missing.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 05:44 AM   #21
thedudeabides
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2012
Posts: 972
Any double stack in any caliber could theoretically do this.

It's either not exclusive to the Sig, or total BS.

I'm guessing total BS.

Being a Navy SEAL doesn't add credibility to his story in any way.
thedudeabides is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 10:29 AM   #22
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,089
Now if a navy armorer wants to step up and talk about this, fine. Makes a nice story, like "Unforgiven".
Strafer Gott is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 10:45 AM   #23
AlexGRT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2000
Posts: 106
I have had rounds shift on 2 pistols. One was a BHP and the other was on a M9. Both magazines had weak springs. The BHP mag was an from an off shore military contract and the Beretta mag was the issued Check Mate magazine. I don't think the brand/design of the pistol causes rounds to misalign. It has to be magazine related.
AlexGRT is online now  
Old September 22, 2012, 11:48 AM   #24
Water-Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: N. Georgia
Posts: 1,425
I would venture to say the author knows what he's talking about.
__________________
PROUD TO BE A VETERAN
Water-Man is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 12:32 PM   #25
proxpilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2010
Location: High Point, NC
Posts: 588
Quote:
I didn't read the book (and probably won't) but it would be interesting for some of us to know which pistol he decided on and why-and not for the purpose of starting a "brand war".
H&K 45c and H&K 416 for his primary. but i just double checked the chapter where he talks about his guns and what he prefers to use and i read nothing of p226 magazine issue. unless he talks about it in a different part of the book but i dont remember reading about it
__________________
W. German SIG Sauer p226
W. German SIG Sauer P6
Springfield Armory XD-S
proxpilot is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12557 seconds with 7 queries