The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 12, 2012, 08:23 PM   #1
Single Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Location: N.C.
Posts: 1,522
Please Educate Me On This

I already have a great 9mm pistol [Ruger P-95], which I can load up with 9mm +P+ JHPs for defense. In your opinion then, what, if any, advantage would be gained by my buying a pistol chambered in .357 Sig? The 9mm +P+ seem to be quite close [in terms of ballistics] to this round. Am I correct on this, or am I missing something? Thanks, all.
__________________
Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."
Single Six is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 08:54 PM   #2
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Well you could have a harder time finding ammo and when you do pay a quite abit more for it. Other than that I don't see any more advantages. Wait, those ain't even advantages, are they? No advantages
farmerboy is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:33 PM   #3
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
The main advantage of .357Sig over 9mm+P+ is that you're not using an overpressure round loaded in excess of SAAMI specs. Gunmakers will stand behind the warranty of a pistol chambered in .357Sig but not necessarily for a 9mm pistol that is damaged while shooting 9mm+P+.

There are precious few pistols for which the use of +P+ is officially endorsed by the manufacturer, and AFAIK the P95 is not one of them. FWIW pistols with official +P+ endorsements- or an unofficial reputation for easily withstanding long-term use- are usually platforms designed around .40S&W but also offered in a 9mm version. "Indestructible Ruger" mythology notwithstanding, the P95 is not offered in a .40 version, and the fact that it uses a completely polymer frame without metal inserts does not bode well IMHO. YMMV.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

Last edited by carguychris; September 12, 2012 at 09:34 PM. Reason: minor reword
carguychris is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:33 PM   #4
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,344
I'll bite.

I don't like +p+ ammo. To me if you feel like your caliber of choice is only effective in +p+ then you should really use a different caliber, as you don't seem to have a lot of confidence in it. I also don't like the fact that it doesn't have a true SAAMI spec. Not too many manufacturers recommend its use, and even then you're putting more wear and tear on the gun. It's also often a good deal different recoil wise than what you might practice with. To me you should practice with a loading similar to what you would use in self defense. That to me is one benefit of 40 SW and 357 SIG, the defense loadings are often very similar to the practice ammo.

In short I like 357 SIG because I'm shooting +p+ 9mm out of a barrel designed specifically for that. As always, YMMV.

Edit: Chris, beat me to it once again.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:37 PM   #5
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
FWIW numerous .40S&W / .357Sig pistols can be outfitted with 9mm conversion barrels for lower-recoil, low-cost practice and plinking. This is another check mark in the .357Sig's favor.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:52 PM   #6
Single Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Location: N.C.
Posts: 1,522
Carguychris: I think that you might well have just rendered any further replies unnecessary. Thanks for that explanation [you too, TunnelRat]. I guess maybe I do need to look at getting a .357 Sig. Thanks!
__________________
Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."
Single Six is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:55 PM   #7
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,573
I've never seen the need to go beyond +P in 9mm. If you want additional umph, maybe a 10mm. There's better variety of ammo and loads in that caliber than .357 Sig.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 10:49 PM   #8
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Why do you think you might need +P+? You think you might shoot someone with your 9 and they won't go down? I think not. Your 9 is fine just how it is and also a plus is the cheaper ammo, lighter recoil, easier ammo to be found, etc, etc.
farmerboy is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 11:33 PM   #9
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,349
no crime

There is no harm in wanting more performance from your handgun.

The comments on ammo availability and cost are valid. The .357Sig MAY feed better due to its bottleneck shape, but that is likely conjecture.

I would not shoot a steady diet of +p+, but for carry, why not?

I have never been a real fan of the .357 Sig. And if we're going to campare it to hot 9mm, what about .38Super +P?
bamaranger is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 11:44 PM   #10
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
While there are pros to the .357 Sig, there are more downsides to it than just cost. The same downsides apply to 9mm +P+, essentially:

Muzzle blast;
Muzzle flash (especially at night);
Slower follow-up shot capability.

I am happy with 147gr HST standard pressure in most of my 9mm pistols, and 124gr +P HST in the one gun that does not feed 147. Tests indicate very good performance with either.

Edit: I had a P229 with .40 and .357 barrels. It was much louder, much flashier, and much flippier than similar pistols in 9mm.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 07:14 AM   #11
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
Quote:
And if we're going to campare it to hot 9mm, what about .38Super +P?
All .38 Super ammo is designated +P by SAAMI. IOW new ammo labeled .38 Super+P nominally isn't any different than older ammo labeled simply as .38 Super (or Super .38).

This somewhat confusing terminology is meant to differentiate this cartridge from .38ACP, which uses the same case and bullet, but is loaded to lower pressure- at least officially. (Some historians argue that original .38ACP military ammo was loaded very close to modern .38 Super, but this is a sidetrack.)

.38 Super has very similar ME to .357Sig but it's typically loaded with slightly heavier bullets. However, it uses a semi-rimmed rather than rimless case, so it feeds more reliably from a single-stack mag than a double-stack one. It's also somewhat long. Consequently, it has historically been used mostly in the M1911 platform. OTOH the ability to use a double-stack mag in a pistol with small 9mm-ish grip dimensions is the main selling point of .357Sig (and .40S&W).
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

Last edited by carguychris; September 13, 2012 at 07:16 AM. Reason: minor reword
carguychris is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 07:32 AM   #12
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,323
Here we go again. Somebody with a 9MM that wants to turn it into a more powerful gun by using over pressure ammunition. This seems to come up almost weekly. If you do not have confidence in any of the modern 9MM rounds suitable for your guns capabilities, get something else. But will more power make you shoot any more accurately'
carguychris, TunnelRat, KyJim, farmboy, Mleake have all given you the best advise, and information you could have. As far as the 357 Sig goes make a simple observation. Look around and see how easy or hard it is to find ammunition. Also compare costs with rounds more powerful than 9MM if that is what you want. what ever you have for SD/HD it is important to shoot it often in order to be proficient in it's operation, and accurate in shooting. A well placed 9MM standard pressure SD round will be much more effective than a lot of poorly placed +P+, ++P++, or as many pluses as you want to add.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 08:34 AM   #13
sailskidrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Posts: 726
9mm has been dropping two legged creatures just fine for nearly 100 years; I really don't see the point in +P+.

A ER/OR physicians perspective on gunshot wounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA
__________________
SailSkiDrive
Hk USP 45 Expert, USP 40, USP 9, SIG P226, S&W M&P9, Hk 4, Makarov, Desert Eagle 40, Beretta FS92 Centurion, Kimber TLEII 1911A1, Glock 22, SIG P225, 1943 Rem Rand 1911A1, S&W mod 64, Walther PPQ, SIG P229, Browning BDA 45 (SIG P220), Hk45, SIG P230
sailskidrive is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 02:40 PM   #14
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 5,697
If I'm getting only .40 mag capacity, I want .40" bullets.
RickB is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 03:53 PM   #15
drail
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2008
Posts: 3,150
+P+ 9mm is for people who can't or won't trade up to a more serious handgun. ( I'm just funnin' ya)

Last edited by drail; September 13, 2012 at 09:16 PM.
drail is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 07:11 PM   #16
Single Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Location: N.C.
Posts: 1,522
Drail: I agree. That's why my normal SD/HD piece is a .45. However, I use the P-95 strictly for monthly training due to 9mm ammo being cheaper. It just occurred to me that if I should decide to use it for serious stuff, I'd give the +P+ a try.
__________________
Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."
Single Six is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 08:42 PM   #17
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,344
Quote:
It just occurred to me that if I should decide to use it for serious stuff, I'd give the +P+ a try.
I can think of a number of standard pressure 147 gr loadings and +p 124 gr loadings that I consider "serious" enough.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 09:17 PM   #18
drail
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2008
Posts: 3,150
+P+ loads will shorten the life of your gun if that matters to you at all. And honestly, if you can place the shot precisely a standard 9mm will do the job just fine.
drail is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 09:29 PM   #19
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Here we go again. Somebody with a 9MM that wants to turn it into a more powerful gun by using over pressure ammunition.
You are overlooking one obvious reason for using +p or +p+.

A shorter barrel gives up velocity, and thereby sacrifices some performance.
But shorter barrels are very handy for concealed carry pistols.

Using +p or +p+ in a short-barreled pistol (like my PM9, or my P45, or my 3" 1911) regains a good bit of that lost velocity and recaptures much of the otherwise-lost performance.

Yes, I realize that it will increase wear, probably to a negliible degree, given the number of rounds involved. Since I can't afford to burn thousands upon thousands of +p/+p+ rounds per year, it is basically moot. And if I could afford the ammo, I could also afford to replace the gun from time to time.

I own several different carry pistols, and shoot them regularly with range ammo. And if I send a mag or two of the hot stuff downrange every now and then...it is not the end of the world, for the gun or for my budget.

Until someone can convince me that I am seriously misunderstanding or miscalculating this equation, I will continue to follow this practice.
orionengnr is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 09:41 PM   #20
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Heavier rounds, such as HST 147, use longer bullets, which leaves less case capacity. The plusses are that pressure is achieved with less powder (due to pressure having an inverse ratio to case volume); the heavier bullet remains in the barrel longer (due to greater mass having more inertia and less acceleration); because of the previous two factors, a higher percentage of powder is burned while the bullet is in the barrel; because of that, the heavier round actually loses a lower percentage of its velocity out of a short barrel than does a lighter, faster round.

Many +P rounds have diminishing returns from short barrels as much of the powder is burned after the bullet has left the barrel. More velocity loss is induced, and more flash and bang are produced.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 13, 2012, 09:46 PM   #21
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
I think if you practice with regular 9 ammo and carry +P or +P+ it won't hurt a thing. Even if you shoot a box or two a year that would still be fine. That's basically what Cor Bon is, is hot rounds. I love the stuff but I wouldn't want to shoot it year round neither.
farmerboy is offline  
Old September 16, 2012, 12:43 PM   #22
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,323
Quote:
You are overlooking one obvious reason for using +p or +p+.

A shorter barrel gives up velocity, and thereby sacrifices some performance.
But shorter barrels are very handy for concealed carry pistols.
I do use Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel +P in my KAHR CM9. A gun that is designed for use of +P, and +P is recommended by the maker as being OK form use in it. BUT NOT THE OVER PRESSURE +P+! At any time.like cold weather where an assailant might be wearing heavy clothing that I feel I need more power than a +P 9MM Gold Dot I carry na 40 S&W loaded with Winchester 180m GR PDX-1 Bonded. Again, I DON'T TRY TO MAKE A 40S&W OUT OF A 9MM!
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old September 16, 2012, 05:13 PM   #23
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 7,932
Quote:
While there are pros to the .357 Sig, there are more downsides to it than just cost. The same downsides apply to 9mm +P+, essentially:

Muzzle blast;
Muzzle flash (especially at night);
Slower follow-up shot capability.
Ive shot a lot of both, and about the only thing Ill agree with here, is the 357SIG has a bigger bark. With both my reloads (AA #9) and factory (mostly Speer and Federal), rarely did I get any noticeable flash (noticeable more than anything else) out of my 357SIG's in low light. Follow up shots with either are really very similar, and not much different than standard 9mm.

Quote:
Not too many manufacturers recommend its use, and even then you're putting more wear and tear on the gun. It's also often a good deal different recoil wise than what you might practice with. To me you should practice with a loading similar to what you would use in self defense. That to me is one benefit of 40 SW and 357 SIG, the defense loadings are often very similar to the practice ammo.
My 31 showed more wear on it using standard 357SIG, than one of my 17's and 26's show with more +P+ through them than the 31 had 357SIG. The 17 and 26 also have right around 45000 and 25000 rounds of pretty hot reloads through them as well. All Ive done all along, is change the recoil springs twice a year of so.

To be fair, none of my SIG's in 357SIG ever showed any signs of problems with the round. Then again, none of my 9mm SIGs shooting +P+ did either, and they had a good bit of +P+ through them too.

As far as recoil goes, I see no difference between my reloads and the Winchester 127 grain +P+ I use in my carry guns. I also saw no difference (other than the bark) between 357SIG and 9mm +P+ when shot out of my 31. Same gun, different barrels. The gun reacted exactly the same with either, and other than the bark, if someone handed it to you, you wouldnt be able to tell them what the caliber was.

Quote:
I can think of a number of standard pressure 147 gr loadings and +p 124 gr loadings that I consider "serious" enough.
Realistically, none of the "major" calibers are the Sword of Todd people like to tell you, and they all pretty much preform to a set standard, so whats it matter? Pick what floats your boat and youll be fine.

Quote:
I think if you practice with regular 9 ammo and carry +P or +P+ it won't hurt a thing.
It wont.

Quote:
Again, I DON'T TRY TO MAKE A 40S&W OUT OF A 9MM!
I dont either. Having owned and shot a fair amount of all of the major calibers out of a good number number of the popular platforms, the 9mm (in all its variations) still out preforms the others in shootability and capacity. The real world performance difference between any of them is basically nil.
__________________
“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
AK103K is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 06:26 AM   #24
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,709
You really don't get any advantage from +P+ 9mm ammo over +P 9mm ammo....just more wear & tear.

If you feel you need more "power", make the jump to the 10mm.
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......
seeker_two is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 09:10 AM   #25
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
AK103K, I was not saying .357Sig had all that compared to 9mm+P+. I was saying they both had those factors compared to standard 9mm.

We disagree on flash, but if you are running handloads, you may be tailoring powder mixes to reduce flash. I know my P229 put out some nice fireballs with .357.
MLeake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12750 seconds with 9 queries