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Old September 18, 2012, 08:27 PM   #1
shrewd
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45-70 compared to 12 gauge slug

I was wondering this lately. I have no real use for either, but I have a .357 and 30-30 levergun and was looking at the 45 to round out the collection.

I got to talking with a friend about various wild and silly justifications for a long arm such as putting down big game, harder hitting rounds and all that jazz.

Basically I'm wondering what the 45-70 does that a 12g slug doesn't, and vice versa.
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Old September 18, 2012, 08:41 PM   #2
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Use a 45-70 Marlin lever gun as a camping/hiking bear gun. Just like it better for out and about carry.
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Old September 18, 2012, 08:49 PM   #3
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The .45-70 has longer range and better penetration.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:05 PM   #4
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The 45/70 is typically lighter than a 12 ga shotgun.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:28 PM   #5
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I don't know that they are typically lighter. That would depend on the configuration.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:38 PM   #6
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The shotgun slug was invented just to prove that it's possible to create a projectile that has an even worse ballistic coefficient than a roundball shot from a muzzleloader.
Twelve gauge slugs going 1600 fps out of the muzzle will be down to about 800 fps, more or less by the time they fly 100 yards through the air.

The much more aerodynamic 405 grain .45-70 bullet shot with a 1600 fps muzzle velocity will still be going 1300+ fps at 100 yards.
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:03 PM   #7
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As far as game is concerned they are pretty similar. I Love both my 45/70 and my 12ga rounds. If I had to pick one to hunt big game with it would be the 45/70. If i was a survivle situation I would take the 12ga for the ability to hunt big game as well as birds.

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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:15 PM   #8
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Under 100 yards the high-end slugs like the Dixie IXL-DGS is is .730" and weighs 870 grs at 1200 fps and gets 109 Taylor K.O. Value or the Brenneke Mangum Crush 666 grain slug - muzzle 1604 fps 3804 ft lbs gets a 111 Taylor K.O Value. They are both freight trains. Buffalo Bore (430gr. Hard Cast penetrator) 1920 fps gets a 54 Taylor K.O. Value. Garrett Cartridges is "Temporarily Out of Business" but assuming they were in business, they have 540-gr SuperHardCast Hammerhead at 1550-fps which gets a 55 Taylor K.O. Value. Up to 70 yard there are few calibers that come close to a hard cast slug, and the 45-70 is not one of them. For over 100 yards there is no contest and the 45-70 is the clear choice.
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
The 45/70 is typically lighter than a 12 ga shotgun.
My Remington rolling block weighs 9 pounds and when shooting it at the range, I'm glad it's that heavy.
As a blanket statement, that's not necessarily true. There are light and heavy shotguns and there are light and heavy rifles.
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Under 100 yards the high-end slugs like the Dixie IXL-DGS is is .730" and weighs 870 grs at 1200 fps and gets 109 Taylor K.O. Value or the Brenneke Mangum Crush 666 grain slug - muzzle 1604 fps 3804 ft lbs gets a 111 Taylor K.O Value. They are both freight trains. Buffalo Bore (430gr. Hard Cast penetrator) 1920 fps gets a 54 Taylor K.O. Value. Garrett Cartridges is "Temporarily Out of Business" but assuming they were in business, they have 540-gr SuperHardCast Hammerhead at 1550-fps which gets a 55 Taylor K.O. Value. Up to 70 yard there are few calibers that come close to a hard cast slug, and the 45-70 is not one of them. For over 100 yards there is no contest and the 45-70 is the clear choice.
This is very true but I think the TKO meter is flawed. My son has a Potato gun that according to the TKO calculator I found on line has a TKO count of 225 (I estimated at 1500 grains, 350 FPS and 3 inch bore diameter) but I would not use it on Deer much less Cape Buffalo.
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:27 PM   #11
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^ A potato has a brinell hardness of about zero. The Dixie Slug is 25 plus. I really only consider the Taylor K.O. value as a measure of effectiveness for dangerous game. I'll trust Taylor's value over your opinion, I think he may have had a little more experience.
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
^ A potato has a brinell hardness of about zero. The Dixie Slug is 25 plus. I really only consider the Taylor K.O. value as a measure of effectiveness for dangerous game. I'll trust Taylor's value over your opinion, I think he may have had a little more experience.
Quite true, but that said no formula is perfect. A true formula would need to consider bullet type as well as speed, caliber, weight.

The numbers I posted where merely to point out that the TKO (like all other numbers such as energy) are just numbers and it is not entirely accurate to compare rounds effectiveness. The potato gun was just an illustration.

I dont believe I posted an opinion in that post other than saying a potato gun would not be good for game. Not trying to argue at all just pointing out that there are flaws in using numbers to simulate how a bullet works... even the TKO numbers.


*edited to add a more realistic example to help prove my point.

Quote:

but one has to remember that it skews the numbers in favor of wider bullets.

I'd rather have a 180 grain .357 hardcast @ 1,400 fps than a 180 grain .45 caliber hardcast @ 1,400 fps for taking down a deer. The TKO formula will tell you that the .45 colt is better simply because it is wider. The 180 grain .45 likely would not penetrate well enough.

Another problem is that it cannot be used with expanding bullets such as JHP's and JSP's..
Taken from Kilgor on THR forums

also i do believe that Taylor did not develop the formula. I think he just had a chart with lots of gaps and other people developed the formula.
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple

Last edited by Deja vu; September 19, 2012 at 12:13 AM.
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Old September 19, 2012, 08:51 AM   #13
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I agree that Taylor's Formula may only be named after him but he did use it and it is predictive of a particular ammunition's effectiveness against against dangerous game at close range. The performance of the Dixie Slugs at the Linebaugh Seminars in the Bone Box are amazing - at one seminar the Dixie Slug produce the largest wound channel and I believe that were shooting up to the 700 Nitro that year. The slugs penetration is more than adequate, has little/no deformation, and holds it weight. The 45-70 will penetrate real good with non-expanding bullets but put an expanding bullet into the bone box and it won't get close to the .73 caliber slug in terms of penetration and wound channel. It is nice to start out with a .73" "pre-expanded slug" "Another problem is that it (Taylor KO) cannot be used with expanding bullets such as JHP's and JSP's." If you are looking for far less penetration then go with an expanding bullet.
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Old September 19, 2012, 08:22 PM   #14
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Interesting comparisons using the Taylor KO value......it seems a 30-06 standard factory load with 180 grain bullet out of a rifle has about the same KO value as a 44 magnum 240 grain load out of a handgun ! The 7mm Remington magnum with standard factory 175 grain bullet rifle load appears to be also in the same ballpark as a 44 magnum 240 grain handgun load ! I'm partial to the 45-70 because I like big bore lever action rifles !
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Old September 19, 2012, 09:32 PM   #15
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.45-70 and 12 gauge both feel pretty much the same to my shoulder.
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Old September 20, 2012, 12:31 AM   #16
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If I could buy a pump or auto 45/70 or a modern lever 12ga(heck.... even 20ga) I would buy them all. Seems the biggest difference is the types of guns they come in.
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Old September 20, 2012, 10:33 AM   #17
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Tour guides in Alaska typically carry 12 ga. pump shotguns with slugs for bear deterrant. So says the one guiding us last June near Fairbanks when I asked her about the one she carried.
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Old September 20, 2012, 10:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja vu View Post
As far as game is concerned they are pretty similar. I Love both my 45/70 and my 12ga rounds. If I had to pick one to hunt big game with it would be the 45/70. If i was a survivle situation I would take the 12ga for the ability to hunt big game as well as birds.

Holy crap is that thing suppressed?
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Old September 20, 2012, 03:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Holy crap is that thing suppressed?
Yeah I have a subsonic load using the 500 grain hornady bullets that has 1000 foot pounds of energy at 150 yards.

It also quiets down my hunting loads (325 grain hornady gummy tips at about 2040 fps) to the point I dont need hearing protection though they are far from movie quiet.

I did it because this is one of the only guns I shoot with out hearing protection. Hunting at close range requires quick shots. Hunting big game with a suppressor in Idaho is fine though I have had fish and game harass me me once but a quick call fixed that... Even though they are ok to hunt with you dont see them very often and many people believe they are not legal.
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple

Last edited by Deja vu; September 20, 2012 at 04:04 PM.
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Old September 20, 2012, 04:32 PM   #20
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.45-405-70 for me please. Wrapped in a rolling block. Definitely for giving a buffalo a "watch the birdie" moment.
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Old September 21, 2012, 01:53 AM   #21
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I'm not really a serious deer hunter. I have a 45-70 because in places where I travel, "a rifle" is the thing to have at camp "up north". In other locations, center fire rifles are not allowed, so I use a 20ga and 12ga shotgun. I can't say the 45-70 does anything different as far as deer hunting goes. I'll wager my 20ga does it just as well compared to the 45-70. I happen to like lever actions. So where rifles are acceptable in my state for deer hunting, I like to use that. If push came to shove and it would never be possible to have a choice, the 20 or 12ga shotgun with slugs would have to win out over adding the expense of the centerfire 45-70.
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Old September 21, 2012, 08:39 AM   #22
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It looks as if you have to use a scope with the suppressed 45/70 because the can blocks the front sight, or is that an illusion? Nice setup!
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Old September 21, 2012, 12:56 PM   #23
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I have to agree with post number 4.
The 12ga slug gun that I had, that performed like a 45-70, weighs quite a lot. I recently opted for a 20 gauge bolt action slug gun- that seems to be better.
I still use a 12, but just for short distances with open iron sights. Short meaning a ballpark 60 yards or less in places that are heavily filled with brush and not a very long sight distance.
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Old September 21, 2012, 11:07 PM   #24
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Unless you see big bears when you are out & about, it is kinda overkill...
If you live in a state with Grizz/brown bear/Polar...GET ONE.

You can literally shoot thru a 4" birch tree to hit a deer on the other side, and it'll drop the deer DRT...
although you end up picking wood splinters outta its hide for a few hours...ruins the cape...
but it does pre-tenderize the meat...HAHA!

I let my Marlin 1895-SBL like Deja's go...still miss it...but it was flat overkill on Florida Whitetail...almost felt like using a howitzer...
BAM!! Whump...that was it. No tracking, no wondering where the deer ran, it was right where you shot it if U did a Heart/lung or neck/head...
Pretty much the same on hog...it'd blast thru a hard bony shoulder and make a mess of the thoracic cavity...
and if you hit 'em in the head...well, YUKK is the best thing I can say there...
Effective as is gets with Buffalo Bore loads...

Somewhat more expensive to shoot than .30-30, like 2-3 times as expensive...
and it has a trajectory like a civil war mortar at long ranges...
but it ain't nothing a Marbles Peep can't solve...and it is fun as heck!!!
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Old September 23, 2012, 11:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
It looks as if you have to use a scope with the suppressed 45/70 because the can blocks the front sight, or is that an illusion? Nice setup
it does not completely block the front sight but it makes it hard to use. The scope is ones of those leverevalution scopes with cross hairs out to 300 yards. Even though the scope feels cheep to me it is pretty accurate, even at the 300 yard line it is still min of deer accurate.
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple
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