Squirrels: Reds vs Greys

Jo6pak · September 19, 2012, 07:10 PM

"Operation: Red Devil" seems to be a succeeding.

First, a bit of background.
The farm that I do the majority of my hunting is about 300 acres in the coulee region of WI. Around 150 is tilled and the other half is wooded hills and valleys covered primarily in hardwoods; with Walnut, Hickory and Oak making up the majority. As is to be expected in such habitat, squirrels are plentiful, and we have enjoyed hunting them over the past 25+ years.
We have always been conscious of conservation and always kept ourselves from over-harvesting the Grey squirrels. There are very few Fox squirrels, so we have always let them go.
However, over the years, the Red (aka. pine) squirrels became epidemic. They seemed to the point of almost an infestation. Where there were once abundant, good sized, Grey squirrels; the Reds had taken over.

So, about 6 years ago, we stopped hunting Grey squirrels completely in the thought that they would recover. After a few years if became apparent that the populatoin of Greys was not increasing.
Now, we are not wildlfie biologists, but we figured that the reds were "entrenched" in the best areas and out-competing our grey, tasty game.
So in the fall of 2009, we launched "Operation: Red Devils" with the aim to eliminate as many red squirrels as quickly as possible. Since red squirrels are a "non-protected" species in WI, there are no bag limits.

Although the little red devils are quick, wary, and small, it was not impossible in the beginning for a guy to get a dozen or so in a day's hunting. We began keeping tails as a tally, for both "scientific" reasons and bragging rights. It actually became great fun.
To date we have killed over 100, and it seems to be working. We were out in the woods last saturday and the Grey population has totally rebounded to huntable quantities.
In the first three years of not hunting any bushytails, the Grey population remained flat, while the Red population soared. Over the past 2 years of shooting only Reds, the Grey population has once again skyrocketed
We took four more Reds saturday, but as we don't want to totally exterminate a population, we have called an suspension to "Operation: Red Devil."

Again, this wasn't a totally scientific study. But it does show that game management can work, even on a small (game) scale.

Anyone else done this sort of management for small game, beyond the obvious predator hunting? Specifically, helping to re-establish an area or thin one species to promote another?

RJay · September 19, 2012, 07:30 PM

Once upon a time I lived in Western Michigan, ( down around Baroda ). Red squirrels are a true pest and will drive out the Grey Squirrels. They are fast little guys but there was no limit on them and I was able to keep them in check. As such Grey squirrels were plentiful. However they { red squirrels }do have to be controlled, I don't think it is even possible to completely wipe them out, heaven knows I tried. They are also notorious for building nests in buildings like rats.

**Brian Pfleuger** · September 19, 2012, 07:50 PM

Never tried such an experiment but I can say without reservation that if I controlled 150 acres and wanted Grey but not Red squirrels, I would shoot every Red I could get my sights on. It's only 150 acres, you're not going to hurt the species.

langenc · September 19, 2012, 08:11 PM

Way back when there was a story about reds castrating all other squirrels.

Keep after the reds at your place for at least another year.

Hunter Customs · September 20, 2012, 09:30 AM

Here in Missouri we have both red and grey squirrels, but it's the greys that are smaller and much faster then the reds.
I've heard our red squirrels refered to as fox squirrels.
We also have some all black squirrels, I've been told they are red squirrels with a dominate black color gene.

Jo6pak, sounds like your plan worked.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Pahoo · September 20, 2012, 10:24 AM

Quote:

I've heard our red squirrels refered to as fox squirrels.

In Iowa, we have the same thing but a "true" Red squirrel is much different than our local "Fox" squirrels. I have only seen "real" reds in norther Iowa, Wisconsin and Minnesota. .....

Be Safe !!!

camper4lyfe · September 20, 2012, 10:26 AM

Hunter, red squirrels are different from fox squirrels. Reds are about the size of large chipmunks, and MEAN. They chase everything away, and can cause a lot of damage to houses and other structures.

Wild Bill Bucks · September 20, 2012, 10:31 AM

Here in southeastern Oklahoma, we have the same situation as Hunter does. The greys are a lot smaller than the reds (also known here as Fox squirrels)

The greys hardly ever sit still and are always moving, making them harder to shoot, and not enough meat for me, so I go for the bigger Reds. They seem to sit a lot longer, and use the tree branches to hide from you rather than running so much.

I have a pipe feeder in the front yard of my cabin, at the lake, because Mrs.WBB likes to watch them in the morning. Every day I will see at least 25 to 30 greys come to the feeder. I only have one Fox squirrel that comes to it, but he is always the first one there, and perchs on the feeder hole. The greys don't seem to have enough brain power to know they can run him off because they out number him, and he seems to be smart enough to know, that if he pushes a little corn down on the ground every so often, that it keeps the greys busy on the ground, and he can eat until he gets his fill, without being disturbed.

That may be why they do so well in certain ares, is because they may just be that much smarter.

Just another 2 cents spent.

warbirdlover · September 20, 2012, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Hunter, red squirrels are different from fox squirrels. Reds are about the size of large chipmunks, and MEAN. They chase everything away, and can cause a lot of damage to houses and other structures.

I was going to say this also but you beat me to it. Fox squirrels are the biggest (tastiest) squirrels around. Red squirrels can ruin a cabin in the woods. They gnaw their way into the roof and just cause damage.

Years ago my in-laws had red squirrels all around their home in the boonies. They got in their camper and destroyed it. So I was given the (fun) task of ridding them of the little devils. All they had was an old single shot 12 ga. Stevens (or something) and I brought my trap loads when we visited. I shot 3 a day every day I was there for three summers and finally got rid of them. They are wily little buggers and you have to have a good hiding place but it was fun. Also got rid of their golphers and chipmunks for them.

And we have squirrels playing all around us during deer hunting (oak woods). There is a bunch of black ones now. Basically gray squirrels only all black. Those genes must be dominant over gray because we see more and more of the black ones each year.

Strafer Gott · September 20, 2012, 11:41 AM

I have myself seen red squirrels gang up on greys with the obvious intention of taking their nuts. In that same stretch of woods I have taken greys that have been castrated. Here in New Mexico reds and Aberts are protected, and grey squirrels nest in the ground. Those Aberts can grow very large, easily twice the weight of the largest Pennsylvania greys, castrated or not.

Jo6pak · September 20, 2012, 06:04 PM

I've also heard the stories of Reds castrating other squirrels, and always thought it to be "old hunters tales." Then last fall, while sitting in the woods, a buddy and I saw a Red sneak up behind a grey. It sure as heck looked like he tried to bite his wedding vegetables off.

Up here, Red squirrels are often referred to as pine squirrels, and some folks call Fox Squirrels, "red squirrels." It can get a bit confusing in conversation

As a kid, we saw lots of Fox Squirrels around, and as warbirdlover mentioned they are the tasiest. It's pretty rare to see Foxys nowadays, but the few that are on the farm are as big as cats. Seems they tend to stick close to the edges of fields.

We will still be treating the Red Devils as targets of opportunity

buck460XVR · September 20, 2012, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Way back when there was a story about reds castrating all other squirrels.

My grandpa used to tell me this tale 50 years ago, he also shot every one he saw, regardless of time of year. While I believed him then, I don't believe it anymore. While it may be true that red/pine squirrels are more aggressive over food and territory and will drive the meeker greys outta an area, and may by accident, nip a grey in the jewels when fighting, I doubt very much if they intentionally Burdizzo them.

Hunter Customs · September 21, 2012, 05:10 PM

Thanks gents for straightening me out.

I kind of figured we were dealing with a different species of red squirrel then what many around here call red squirrels.

As I said earlier I've also heard our red squirrels around here being called fox squirrels which I would say most likely is what they truely are.

I will say the greys are not so plentiful around here and they sure are fast little critters, a true challenge to hunt.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

tahunua001 · September 21, 2012, 05:17 PM

I wish I could enact operation red devils out here but apparently pine squirrels are protected...why I don't know, they are a nuisance and they are everywhere. ground squirrels are fair game but there aren't that many of them, they are geographically isolated and yes, just a couple guys with 22's can really damage the population if given the chance.

boomingmetropolis · September 22, 2012, 07:10 PM

Spent a few hrs yesterday in the state forest. The reds (or pines, if you prefer) are the dominant species and I've watched them chase the few remaining greys.

The daily limit is 7 and I had that within 45 mins. The 10/22 and the Eley kept knocking them down. I'd like to take credit for the marksmanship, but there's no point in lying to you at this stage of the game.

The rest of the morning I just wandered around and enjoyed a wonderful day.

September 19, 2012, 07:10 PM	#1
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,140	Squirrels: Reds vs Greys "Operation: Red Devil" seems to be a succeeding. First, a bit of background. The farm that I do the majority of my hunting is about 300 acres in the coulee region of WI. Around 150 is tilled and the other half is wooded hills and valleys covered primarily in hardwoods; with Walnut, Hickory and Oak making up the majority. As is to be expected in such habitat, squirrels are plentiful, and we have enjoyed hunting them over the past 25+ years. We have always been conscious of conservation and always kept ourselves from over-harvesting the Grey squirrels. There are very few Fox squirrels, so we have always let them go. However, over the years, the Red (aka. pine) squirrels became epidemic. They seemed to the point of almost an infestation. Where there were once abundant, good sized, Grey squirrels; the Reds had taken over. So, about 6 years ago, we stopped hunting Grey squirrels completely in the thought that they would recover. After a few years if became apparent that the populatoin of Greys was not increasing. Now, we are not wildlfie biologists, but we figured that the reds were "entrenched" in the best areas and out-competing our grey, tasty game. So in the fall of 2009, we launched "Operation: Red Devils" with the aim to eliminate as many red squirrels as quickly as possible. Since red squirrels are a "non-protected" species in WI, there are no bag limits. Although the little red devils are quick, wary, and small, it was not impossible in the beginning for a guy to get a dozen or so in a day's hunting. We began keeping tails as a tally, for both "scientific" reasons and bragging rights. It actually became great fun. To date we have killed over 100, and it seems to be working. We were out in the woods last saturday and the Grey population has totally rebounded to huntable quantities. In the first three years of not hunting any bushytails, the Grey population remained flat, while the Red population soared. Over the past 2 years of shooting only Reds, the Grey population has once again skyrocketed We took four more Reds saturday, but as we don't want to totally exterminate a population, we have called an suspension to "Operation: Red Devil." Again, this wasn't a totally scientific study. But it does show that game management can work, even on a small (game) scale. Anyone else done this sort of management for small game, beyond the obvious predator hunting? Specifically, helping to re-establish an area or thin one species to promote another? __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

September 19, 2012, 07:30 PM	#2
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,413	Once upon a time I lived in Western Michigan, ( down around Baroda ). Red squirrels are a true pest and will drive out the Grey Squirrels. They are fast little guys but there was no limit on them and I was able to keep them in check. As such Grey squirrels were plentiful. However they { red squirrels }do have to be controlled, I don't think it is even possible to completely wipe them out, heaven knows I tried. They are also notorious for building nests in buildings like rats. __________________ Ron James

September 19, 2012, 07:50 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,451	Never tried such an experiment but I can say without reservation that if I controlled 150 acres and wanted Grey but not Red squirrels, I would shoot every Red I could get my sights on. It's only 150 acres, you're not going to hurt the species. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

September 20, 2012, 06:04 PM	#11
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,140	I've also heard the stories of Reds castrating other squirrels, and always thought it to be "old hunters tales." Then last fall, while sitting in the woods, a buddy and I saw a Red sneak up behind a grey. It sure as heck looked like he tried to bite his wedding vegetables off. Up here, Red squirrels are often referred to as pine squirrels, and some folks call Fox Squirrels, "red squirrels." It can get a bit confusing in conversation As a kid, we saw lots of Fox Squirrels around, and as warbirdlover mentioned they are the tasiest. It's pretty rare to see Foxys nowadays, but the few that are on the farm are as big as cats. Seems they tend to stick close to the edges of fields. We will still be treating the Red Devils as targets of opportunity __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

September 21, 2012, 05:17 PM	#14
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 3,600	I wish I could enact operation red devils out here but apparently pine squirrels are protected...why I don't know, they are a nuisance and they are everywhere. ground squirrels are fair game but there aren't that many of them, they are geographically isolated and yes, just a couple guys with 22's can really damage the population if given the chance. __________________ all guns lost in a tragic smelting accident. I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.

September 19, 2012, 08:11 PM	#4
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,187	Way back when there was a story about reds castrating all other squirrels. Keep after the reds at your place for at least another year.

September 20, 2012, 09:30 AM	#5
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 1,249	Here in Missouri we have both red and grey squirrels, but it's the greys that are smaller and much faster then the reds. I've heard our red squirrels refered to as fox squirrels. We also have some all black squirrels, I've been told they are red squirrels with a dominate black color gene. Jo6pak, sounds like your plan worked. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

September 20, 2012, 10:26 AM	#7
camper4lyfe Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2008 Location: Fairport, NY Posts: 148	Hunter, red squirrels are different from fox squirrels. Reds are about the size of large chipmunks, and MEAN. They chase everything away, and can cause a lot of damage to houses and other structures.

September 20, 2012, 10:31 AM	#8
Wild Bill Bucks Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2005 Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch Posts: 1,232	Here in southeastern Oklahoma, we have the same situation as Hunter does. The greys are a lot smaller than the reds (also known here as Fox squirrels) The greys hardly ever sit still and are always moving, making them harder to shoot, and not enough meat for me, so I go for the bigger Reds. They seem to sit a lot longer, and use the tree branches to hide from you rather than running so much. I have a pipe feeder in the front yard of my cabin, at the lake, because Mrs.WBB likes to watch them in the morning. Every day I will see at least 25 to 30 greys come to the feeder. I only have one Fox squirrel that comes to it, but he is always the first one there, and perchs on the feeder hole. The greys don't seem to have enough brain power to know they can run him off because they out number him, and he seems to be smart enough to know, that if he pushes a little corn down on the ground every so often, that it keeps the greys busy on the ground, and he can eat until he gets his fill, without being disturbed. That may be why they do so well in certain ares, is because they may just be that much smarter. Just another 2 cents spent.

September 20, 2012, 11:41 AM	#10
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 878	I have myself seen red squirrels gang up on greys with the obvious intention of taking their nuts. In that same stretch of woods I have taken greys that have been castrated. Here in New Mexico reds and Aberts are protected, and grey squirrels nest in the ground. Those Aberts can grow very large, easily twice the weight of the largest Pennsylvania greys, castrated or not.

September 21, 2012, 05:10 PM	#13
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 1,249	Thanks gents for straightening me out. I kind of figured we were dealing with a different species of red squirrel then what many around here call red squirrels. As I said earlier I've also heard our red squirrels around here being called fox squirrels which I would say most likely is what they truely are. I will say the greys are not so plentiful around here and they sure are fast little critters, a true challenge to hunt. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

September 22, 2012, 07:10 PM	#15
boomingmetropolis Junior member Join Date: September 1, 2012 Posts: 9	Spent a few hrs yesterday in the state forest. The reds (or pines, if you prefer) are the dominant species and I've watched them chase the few remaining greys. The daily limit is 7 and I had that within 45 mins. The 10/22 and the Eley kept knocking them down. I'd like to take credit for the marksmanship, but there's no point in lying to you at this stage of the game. The rest of the morning I just wandered around and enjoyed a wonderful day.