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Old September 20, 2012, 12:37 AM   #26
Gats Italian
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The storm is an easy shooter but a decocker, safety and heavy first shoot is not ideal for most. It's a "fun gun". That's it.
The PX4 also comes in a light DAO configuration called the "Constant." No safeties and no change of the trigger pull shot to shot.

And apparently no magic mallets have ever had to escape Canada to bash on the PX4 either.

When one guy's opinion, one of a disgruntled former employee at that, runs counter to every other commentary on the pistol series, I know which way the credibility tips for me.
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Old September 20, 2012, 05:44 AM   #27
iMagUdspEllr
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@Gats Italian: Do you happen to know the trigger weight of the constant action? Also, can you describe the trigger characteristics compared to the single action pull of the DA/SA version (e.g. pre-travel, break, reset, etc.)?

I owned a PX4 Storm Compact for a time. The safety and DA trigger made me hate it.
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Old September 20, 2012, 06:04 AM   #28
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I'm not really a handgun shooter but from what I have experienced in the past is that a glock will always pull through! Beretta's are cool but glocks are...well Glocks!
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Old September 20, 2012, 06:33 AM   #29
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Having disassembled and reassembled both many times, I can tell you that for me the Glock is slightly simpler than the PX4. They both have the same number of parts after basic disassembly, but I've found that the PX4's buffer assembly is slightly more difficult to re-insert and the barrel doesn't pop out quite as easily. I'm not saying the PX4 is in any way difficult or complicated, just that the Glock is slightly easier.
I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks that. The little piece that holds the spring is plastic and I'm always deathly afraid of breaking it in reassembling it. However it is getting easier (its the Wife's pistol and she graciously "allows" me to clean it for her after we shoot). Its just more complicated than the FS92 or my M&P. But its still not difficult.

For a DA/SA I really like it. They adjusted the slide stipling in front of the decocker which is better for slide cocking and the safety has been flattened for easier CC. Additionally, those noting the safety is difficult for them. Although I understand, one an leave the safety off and just use the DA first shot (the old police method).
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Old September 20, 2012, 07:30 AM   #30
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And apparently no magic mallets have ever had to escape Canada to bash on the PX4 either.

When one guy's opinion, one of a disgruntled former employee at that, runs counter to every other commentary on the pistol series, I know which way the credibility tips for me.
Which other commentaries do you have access to?

I have never read any other commentary other than by a "gun writer" that shoots 100 rounds slow fire and does a 3 round group and calls it good. They never seem to show up in any training class AARs either and as several people on that thread commented, they aren't chosen by any major police departments anywhere, while several of the others mentioned are. (Like the Beretta 92 series or the Sig)

I don't know Todd personally, but he isn't a disgruntled employee, he has very good things to say about certain Beretta and Sig models (He worked for both companies), but he also doesn't pull any punches when there is a problem. He is actually one of the few professional proponents of the DA/SA automatic which are pretty much the bread and butter of Beretta and Sig.
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Old September 20, 2012, 12:37 PM   #31
Gats Italian
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You need to get to the Beretta forum more often. Plenty of folks there have gone beyond 500 or more rounds in a single range session without Canadian mallets.

If, on a forum dedicated to the products of a manufacturer, NO ONE has ever had to hammer apart their PX4, I'll take that as gospel when compared to a guy who won't even pop one into his endurance challenge blog to put his own "observations" to the test.

And don't think Beretta fans on the BerettaForum won't savage the company's products because they absolutely have on the 9000, the Tomcat, and the Nano's teething problems.

ACCOKEEK, MD (October 08, 2007) — Beretta today announced that is has received documentation from the Italian ‘Banco di Prova’ that three Beretta PX4 Storm pistols had 30,000 rounds (10,000 per pistol) fired through them with ZERO defects during a specialized ballistic test conducted on behalf of the German State Police. The Italian Banco di Prova, an Italian proof house that oversees and certifies testing for firearms, did the actual testing last month.This independent testing is further proof of how the Px4 Storm series of pistols truly represents the next generation of handguns, providing a new threshold of durability and reliability for the Law Enforcement and Defense communities.

--------

At the range after one firing session, I used rubbing alcohol to remove all traces of oil on the barrel, locking lug and slide rails. I reassembled the pistol and fired 50 rounds. Function was perfect. That’s not much of a “torture test”, but I don’t foresee needing to shoot the PX4 (or any of my other firearms) without normal lubrication. Since the advent of Mr. Glock’s pistols, it seems that the once normal cleaning-and-lubing rigor in handgun maintenance somehow became an unnecessary nuisance. I own, shoot and trust Glock pistols…but mine are cleaned and lubed (as per Glock’s instructions) after each shooting session. I do not know if the PX4 would function as reliably as the Glock if bone dry, but mine went fifty shots without incident. When lubricated, it was not overly done. I applied oil in similar amounts as when using my other non-Glock semiautomatics.

I would trust either of the PX4 pistols as defensive arms. In other words, I’d bet my life that they would function perfectly."


http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/s...etta%20PX4.htm
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Old September 20, 2012, 12:45 PM   #32
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I'll go ahead and chime in for the PX4, more to the question of high round count durability. Mine (.40 full size) is nearing 4,000 rounds flawless, over the last four years. I once ran it for 600 over 5 range trips over one month with no cleaning or lubrication just to push it a bit (normally I meticulously clean and lube after every range trip, as every shooter ought to). Ran like a champ. Those 600 were WWB, Federal Champion, and Federal HST.

A Glock or Sig fails catastrophically and it's an exception. But a Beretta does and it's a rule?

I'll even admit that the standard Browning tilt barrel system is more reliable if you set both guns up and shot until one jammed. But for practical purposes the PX4 - at least my example - is rock solid.

There are a large number of high quality guns not largely adopted by police departments. Police issued weapons are a good baseline for quality, but they aren't the last word.

Last edited by LockedBreech; September 20, 2012 at 01:02 PM.
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Old September 20, 2012, 04:03 PM   #33
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You need to get to the Beretta forum more often. Plenty of folks there have gone beyond 500 or more rounds in a single range session without Canadian mallets.

If, on a forum dedicated to the products of a manufacturer, NO ONE has ever had to hammer apart their PX4, I'll take that as gospel when compared to a guy who won't even pop one into his endurance challenge blog to put his own "observations" to the test.

And don't think Beretta fans on the BerettaForum won't savage the company's products because they absolutely have on the 9000, the Tomcat, and the Nano's teething problems.

ACCOKEEK, MD (October 08, 2007) — Beretta today announced that is has received documentation from the Italian ‘Banco di Prova’ that three Beretta PX4 Storm pistols had 30,000 rounds (10,000 per pistol) fired through them with ZERO defects during a specialized ballistic test conducted on behalf of the German State Police. The Italian Banco di Prova, an Italian proof house that oversees and certifies testing for firearms, did the actual testing last month.This independent testing is further proof of how the Px4 Storm series of pistols truly represents the next generation of handguns, providing a new threshold of durability and reliability for the Law Enforcement and Defense communities.

--------

At the range after one firing session, I used rubbing alcohol to remove all traces of oil on the barrel, locking lug and slide rails. I reassembled the pistol and fired 50 rounds. Function was perfect. That’s not much of a “torture test”, but I don’t foresee needing to shoot the PX4 (or any of my other firearms) without normal lubrication. Since the advent of Mr. Glock’s pistols, it seems that the once normal cleaning-and-lubing rigor in handgun maintenance somehow became an unnecessary nuisance. I own, shoot and trust Glock pistols…but mine are cleaned and lubed (as per Glock’s instructions) after each shooting session. I do not know if the PX4 would function as reliably as the Glock if bone dry, but mine went fifty shots without incident. When lubricated, it was not overly done. I applied oil in similar amounts as when using my other non-Glock semiautomatics.

I would trust either of the PX4 pistols as defensive arms. In other words, I’d bet my life that they would function perfectly."
I have no personal experience with the PX4 so all I can do is go on what I have read from others that do. Even if you have only fired one round out of a PX4 you have more experience with one that I do, I haven't even picked one up before.

That being said, I wouldn't rely on the testing of 4 pistols provided by a manufacturer as indicative an entire line of pistols though. Those types of tests are easy to "game".

A proper test would have been at least having the 4 guns chosen randomly out of a production run without the knowledge of the manufacturer and better yet, 30 samples chosen randomly.

That is the reason why YMMV was coined. The CAFE testing that are used by the EPA to set mileage numbers on new car stickers is routinely "gamed" with hand built cars with specifically chosen components within particular tolerance ranges to make sure the car is as light as possible with the least possible rolling resistance. You will never buy a car off the lot that is built that way.

I am not saying that is what Beretta did, but it is pretty routine in all the industries that I have been involved in.

Who is the guy on the Highpower link? I couldn't find any info on exactly who he was, but I didn't search through the whole site.

While police choices aren't necessarily a perfect indicator price can also play a factor, it is generally a decent indicator. (That is why you don't see HiPoints in every holster )
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Old September 20, 2012, 05:01 PM   #34
Gats Italian
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Whether they are working at a land border crossing or a marine port of entry or investigating cross-border smuggling, CBSA officers have unique jobs and face unique circumstances. Following a rigorous, open and transparent process led by Public Works and Government Services Canada, the CBSA selected the Beretta Px4 9mm as its duty firearm. The firearm performed well during extensive testing. It also surpassed the CBSA's requirements and specifications, including the need to be lightweight, reliable, safe and easy to use in a variety of work environments.
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-ag.../menu-eng.html

The CBSA has been using the PX4F since 2006, yet there has been no recall, no demand to be reissued newer weapons, nothing. Curious, no, if they've been hammering them apart all of this time?
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Old September 20, 2012, 05:26 PM   #35
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The CBSA has been using the PX4F since 2006, yet there has been no recall, no demand to be reissued newer weapons, nothing. Curious, no, if they've been hammering them apart all of this time?

From that report:

Quote:
Upon successful completion of the training, armed officers participate in two live fire practices annually, and must demonstrate that they have maintained the established standards in the use of the duty firearm, and control and defensive tactics by completing a re-certification process every year.
How many rounds are fired the 2x a year they shoot the guns?

Do you know how many rounds are shot annually? Do they do other training outside of that biannual practice and qualification?

Do they actually shoot the guns or just wear them as badges of office most of the time?

If they only shoot the guns 100 rounds a year in qualifications, they will probably never wear out or ever lock up due to dirt/fouling/lack of lubrication.

From what I was reading, the CBSA was just recently armed (in 2006) and historically isn't a firearms intensive service and often their officers know so little about firearms they often have to call for assistance on unloading/checking if a gun is safe.

That probably means that they don't shoot a lot.

Do you know how many rounds they shoot or what their annual qualification is? How many rounds are fired annually?
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Old September 20, 2012, 05:49 PM   #36
Gats Italian
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They sound like the typical cop shop on the quals, even if the department in question had been going armed for 150 years.

How many departments have ever had 2000 round continuous gunfights?
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Old September 20, 2012, 07:59 PM   #37
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How many departments have ever had 2000 round continuous gunfights?
Hopefully, none.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Beretta PX4, I was just passing along what little info I had on it.

If the OP isn't going to be shooting a lot, he probably wouldn't ever notice. If he is going to be burning through a bunch of ammo, he might have a problem, then again, he might not.
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Old September 20, 2012, 08:43 PM   #38
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I have never, NEVER had a problem with my PX4. In my opinion it is as good of a pistol as the GLOCK 19. I really like the full size and compact GLOCKs, but in my mind the PX4 is just as reliable but with a different manual of arms. If you like striker fired go with the G19 if you like DA/SA go with the Beretta. Either way you have a good reliable pistol that will serve your needs well.
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Old September 20, 2012, 09:50 PM   #39
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I have plenty experience with both now and ill say again my px4 is rock solid. not one failure of any kind aproaching 5k. Ill also say that it has better fit&finish than the glock and ejects brass much better. That thing slings brass way out there only thing is accesories are limited. The glock has been reliable thus far though it slings brass all over the place, never know where itll be and it has the glock "pignose" which adds ugly to the ugly. Glock carries bettter i think, glocks lighter/smaller. Both are great guns. Take my suggestion, find a storm second hand and get it cheap you wont be sorry, but if you give one up for the other i think you might.
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Old September 23, 2012, 04:13 PM   #40
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Just had a fantastic range day with my PX4. I was very accurate with fast split times. The PX4 was smooth and trouble free as usual. About 200 rounds of 180-grain Federal Champion. I stopped counting closely at 3,000 but I'm almost certainly at or over 4,000 now over 4 years, 2 months. Flawless. And that single action trigger makes it hard to be bad.

Nothing like a good day at the range.
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