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Old September 17, 2012, 08:22 PM   #1
ngzcaz
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Has there EVER been a documented case..

of a lever action, 30/30 in particular, exploding from a pointed bullet pushing against another ? I couldn't find any. Apparently there was a single case of a .338 hot load but nothing else.. Now IF that's true and there have been many reasons given why it won't happen aren't the guys that use the 30/30 missing out of some really good hand loads ? I saw a post that claims 3000 fps with a 30/30 ?? Might have been a 100 grain bullet but you get the point..

So I ask again has there been any and if so how many can you point me to that actually has fact to back it up.. I'm asking because I'm curious, have a 30/30 and if its practically impossible to chain react an explosion why is everyone afraid to up the loads ?
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Old September 17, 2012, 08:37 PM   #2
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How would increasing the propellant have anything to do with "exploding from a pointed bullet pushing against another"
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Old September 17, 2012, 09:25 PM   #3
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I suppose if you had a hot load in the chamber the jarring of the extra recoil could cause the rounds in the tube to press against each other with more force. Maybe there are no documented cases cause they are loaded with RN bullets most of the time. Hornady makes the leverevolotion bullets. I wouldn't be a guinea pig. If you want to load with spire points, have one in the tube, one in the chamber, or use the new Hornady bullets.
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Old September 17, 2012, 09:32 PM   #4
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I'm not going to take the time to research the issue, but I'm sure the precaution is based on more than one real bad experience.
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Old September 17, 2012, 09:54 PM   #5
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Do YOU want to become the FIRST documented case? Use the Hornady leverevolution pointed bullets. They work as advertised.
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Old September 17, 2012, 10:36 PM   #6
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Here's a mag tub detonation incident. Interestingly enough, it involved flat-point bullets and apparently the flat edge set off the primer. Here's another. (Scroll down to post 17) This one involved dropping a gun with a loaded mag--the impact force was apparently sufficient to bang one round against the primer in front of it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=142885

Interesting comment about halfway down the page in this thread. It claims that one "Ed Heer", a ballistic tech for Hornady, lost a hand in a magazine tube detonation.

In another post farther down the page, a person claims to have seen a 94 (30-30) with a blown mag tube.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ind...opic=3775034.0
Quote:
Has there EVER been a documented case...
The fact that documented cases may be hard to find doesn't mean that an event can't happen--it doesn't even necessarily mean that it doesn't happen often. It might actually mean that it doesn't happen often, or it might just mean that it's simply not documented often.

Even if one were to establish that it really doesn't happen often, that still leaves the question of WHY it doesn't happen often. For example, it might not happen often because so many people have been educated on the subject and most of them aren't interested in tempting fate. Or maybe it's because the ammo/firearm companies are careful to try to minimize the likelihood of such an event, etc.

Finally, it's been my experience that people who try to rationalize their actions with the "can't find a documented incident" are working a lot harder on the rationalization than they are on actually looking for documented incidents.
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Old September 18, 2012, 02:00 AM   #7
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IIRC, there were some well-documented cases of mag tube detonation way back when. It's the reason why Remington put swirls in the magazine tubes on the Model 14s. It's also the reason why Remington quit loading Bronze Points in some of their ammo. There have been numerous writers over the past 50-ish years that I have been reading gun rags try to duplicate a magazine tube detonation, some successfully. So yes, it can happen. I will not even begin to guess at the first accident of this type, it would be going back a long way. It probably involved fulminate of mercury primers, but it is still a good precaution nonetheless.
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Old September 18, 2012, 03:08 AM   #8
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This thread has me wondering if the 30/30 accelerators have enough mass to pop a primer?
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Old September 18, 2012, 06:30 AM   #9
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This has been a recognized concern for well over 100 years, but apparently really didn't crop up until the adoption of jacketed bullets.

The French, with their 1886 Lebel, may have been the first to be concerned about this, and took steps to make sure that it wasn't an issue in the tube-fed Lebel rifle with the design of the cartridge.

They adopted a flat-point bullet, the Balle M, in the original Lebel rounds, used a double-taper case that tended to tip the nose of the bullet into the rim of the cartridge in front, and employed a shielded primer with a very hard primer cup.

Upon adoption of the Balle D pointed bullet, the added a wide annular ring around the case head that was designed to catch the tip of the bullet in the round behind, physically locking it into place.

In the United States, early jacketed bullet cartridges for tube-fed guns often used a shielded primer, which looked like a primer with a hole in the middle with another primer underneath.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:24 AM   #10
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A fellow gun repairman (Much older) was telling me of a customer with a 38-55 that had tube detonation with factory ammo. He said it was flat point ammo.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:25 AM   #11
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Amazing to me that all I see so far are other calibers having a malfunction, even a 12 gauge auto loader. Where is the 12 gauge auto loader concern? The closest I saw was a guy who saw it at a gunsmiths shop. Where are the pics and some kind of authoritative proof ? Seems that MILLIONS of rounds have been fired thru 30/30's and many many rounds that guys experiment with that were hot and also not the flat nose rounds as well. There is a spring in the magazine tube which would absorb some impact preventing a primer discharge. 100 % safe ?.. No fool would say that about any weapon, any caliber and whether its a bolt, lever, semi-auto etc etc. No one is advocating anything that a person is uncomfortable with. By the same token if guys want to see if improvement can be made safely well.. its just hard to believe guys are steadfastly against it to the point of burying their head in the sand. Wonder what the car industry would be like if the same train of thought prevailed ? Would we still be driving model A's ?

1. the first example in Johnksa's post was a 45/70 ( we're talking 30/30 remember ? I was quite clear that was the yardstick )

2. Examples 2 and 3 are people that he said " claims " had problems. Only one referenced a 30/30 and that was a he " saw " event. And he may well have saw it. Problem is no one knows how if, when, and how it happened.

3. It certainly shouldn't be that difficult to find something definite.. I'm just looking for something other than hearsay. Any of you guys have any experience with " hearsay " evidence in court ? I do.. There's a reason its not admitted in court.. its not reliable.

4. if it has occurred it seems much more likely to get hit by lightening or win the super lotto than have this happen.

And it seems to me that the people who state that some people who rationalize their actions by " can't find a documented case " are working harder on the rationalization than they are looking for documented cases " either don't get it or don't want to get it. This is the 21st century. Internet, TV, instant access to info and the like.. Lawsuits would surely have been in the news. The anti-gun folks would have jumped on that like flies on the proverbial sh% pile. No offense intended for anyone but no one has provided anything to change my mind that these incidents occurred.. yet .. I appreciate the info and opinions. I just don't have to agree with them..yet.. But who knows ? I have changed my mind on occasion..
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngzcaz
aren't the guys that use the 30/30 missing out of some really good hand loads?
No, there is more to good handloads than velocity. There is also accuracy and pressure. The .30-30 isn't a .308 and if I want more power from a .308 bullet, I'll pick a different caliber. Yeah, sure there are always folks who try to test the limits of the cartridge but often just frustrate themselves. I've been a fan of the .30-30 for several decades and I've played with levers and single shots and used spitzer bullets in them. It was a great, interesting experiment but at the end of the day, you've still got a .30-30. That's not a bad thing, though, as we could argue that the .30-30 might be the most successful game cartridge ever used in North America. I still shoot the .30-30 and get the best satisfaction from a jacketed 150 grain bullet pushed to about 2100 fps, or a good gas-checked wheelweight bullet pushed to about 1850 fps.

Quote:
because I'm curious, have a 30/30 and if its practically impossible to chain react an explosion why is everyone afraid to up the loads ?
Just because it's practically impossible doesn't mean that it is absolutely impossible. You're not the first one to think of these things and you won't be the last. Hornady has done us a great favor with their Leverevolution ammo and bullets for the handloader.

If you really want to delve into the capabilities of the .30-30 cartridge, go over to the Leverguns forum and start lurking around there. Lots of good information on the cartridge
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:38 AM   #13
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"There is a spring in the magazine tube which would absorb some impact preventing a primer discharge."

Actually, the spring nature of the magazine tube makes things worse, not better. Under recoil the spring will compress, which does take up energy.

But when the recoil stops, that spring is going to release energy and push the cartridges in front of it until they are stopped by the other end of the magazine tube.

At that point things can get pretty interesting.


"Where is the 12 gauge auto loader concern?"

Take a look at any 12 gauge shell. It doens't have a big solid pointy thing at the front. It's actually got a rim around the edge with a depressed center, which generally makes things even safer because there's even more "airgap" between the primer and anything that might make it go bang.

The people who make these guns have been warning us about this particular danger, and loading ammunition to PREVENT it, for well over 100 years.

Do you really think that Marlin, Winchester, Remington, etc., would include those warnings, and tailor ammunition specifically to prevent it, if there wasn't a valid concern?

Why don't you get in touch with Marlin and Remington and ask them if they have any confirmed examples of this happening?

Or, even better (or worse, whatever), why don't you load up a bunch of 150-gr. spire points, load your mag tube full, and go shooting and let us know how things turn out?
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:56 AM   #14
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NG,
I'm not personally aware of any .30-30 tube detonations, but as several have told you this has been a recognized risk across all calibers used in tube mags for over a century.
If you don't want to believe it, do as Mike suggests.

We got to Cheyenne, Wyoming, a few years ago for a CAS shoot the day after a shooter blew up his rifle's magazine.
I don't know the caliber, but it sent him to the hospital.

And again- velocity has nothing to do with it, it's the bullet tip.
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:59 AM   #15
ngzcaz
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Since I am not a hand loader and do not have any expertise in this area I'm unable to accede to your suggestion. BUT.. it does appear that many have taken your suggestion and been quite satisfied with the results. And they are still alive and well thank you very much. You seem to infer that Remington and Marlin have documentation to substantiate what you are seem to believe as fact.. If that's true where is it ? You are the one making the statement, let the rest of us in on it. I just keep hearing these horror stories with nothing to back it up.

As far as the recoil and spring pressure there's no way a recoil and subsequent reaction will equal a firing pin in pinpoint pressure and the quick snap taken to set off the primer. Don't buy that for a second.. If that were the case there would be no problem to replicate it in a qualified testing lab.

Look.. I'm not suggesting trying to load a 30/30 to equal a 300 Weatherby magnum. Just to get the best it has to offer. Is that such a bad thing?
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:10 AM   #16
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As others have noted, put one in the chamber, then another in the tube, and you can load whatever you want.

The thing is, you may very well find that pushing the velocity envelope may degrade accuracy. OTOH, you may find that everything works well. The point is, you can test performance without testing tube dynamics with spire points.

Or, you could use the polymer tipped LeveRevolution rounds, and get higher velocity without increasing theoretical risk.

So, I am kind of curious as to why you would wish to be a test case for tube safety, as I am not sure what you would expect to gain.
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:10 AM   #17
ngzcaz
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I fully understand its the tip that's the concern. If the flex tip by Hornady is the answer.. great. And if they can improve on the tip why not ? Oh.. I forgot. just leave everything the way its been for over a hundred years. Get rid of the new tip.

Once again its stated that a rifle blew up. This reference is even more vague than before since we don't know if its even a lever action let alone the caliber... And this is why facts should rule this conversation instead of supposition, hearsay and innuendo.

Sorry guys.. I just need SOMETHING in writing from a qualified source. While logically it may make sense that a discharge could occur, sometimes things aren't always as they seem...
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:24 AM   #18
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"I just need SOMETHING in writing from a qualified source."

I told you how to do that.

Contact Remington.

Contact Marlin.
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:38 AM   #19
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PSP or others will improve performance just by virtue of improved ballistic coefficient. More pressure is not the answer. Single load them, and keep them out of tube magazines. Savage made a bolt action in .30-30. Contenders are also chambered in .30-.30. The case is thin. Pressure is not the answer.
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:42 AM   #20
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one of mausers first magazine loaded rifles were a tubular construction and he switched, and if he had reason that is good enough for me

but is it possible to load the first one in the chamber with a spitzer and treat it as a single shot with backup ?
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Old September 18, 2012, 12:10 PM   #21
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"but is it possible to load the first one in the chamber with a spitzer and treat it as a single shot with backup ?"

Yes.

Countless magazine articles in Outdoor Life, American Rifleman, etc., have said to do just that if you must hunt with a spitzer bullet.

The best solution as far as I'm concerned?

Get a Savage Model 99.
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Old September 18, 2012, 12:43 PM   #22
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It should be ok to have one spire point in the chamber, and one in the tube, but ONLY one in the tube, and don't loose count.
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Old September 18, 2012, 12:53 PM   #23
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The rifle I referenced, being at a CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) match, was a levergun. Whether .30-30 or not, the same principles apply.
Really, NG, if you're not going to believe then there's no point in further discussion with you.

You don't reload anyway, so why do you HAVE to have anything in writing?
The ammomakers do what they do because they understand the risks, based on past disasters, and they're not going to put out a 3000 FPS spitzer bullet in a .30-30 cartridge for you.

If you can't accept that, then get used to an unhappy life.
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Old September 18, 2012, 01:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
if its practically impossible to chain react an explosion why is everyone afraid to up the loads ?
Indulge me for a moment. What is it that you're trying to accomplish? I can't see where you're going with this...and you don't reload either so I'm baffled.
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Old September 18, 2012, 02:13 PM   #25
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Maybe no "documented" cases can be found since at least most people learned over 100 years ago not to do it.

Stupid people though never learn from theirs or others mistakes...

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