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Old September 18, 2012, 03:54 PM   #26
briang2ad
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If II really don't think cops like them per se. In the 80's lawyers went to them as a safety feature and it took off. If you do a thumb high hold on a cz with right thumb resting on the safety, you instantly verify the safety is off before firing.

A da/sa sounds nice but is hard to train for trigger control. Especially if you are not shooting hundreds of rounds per week.


If you think a decocker on a cz is better you are just deceiving yourself ! :

Last edited by briang2ad; September 18, 2012 at 04:00 PM.
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Old September 18, 2012, 06:26 PM   #27
Walt Sherrill
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I really don't think cops like them per se.
Re: decockers.

I think a lot do -- simply because many (perhaps most) cops are NOT gun enthusiasts, and view their weapons as a last resort tool. But, it's probably also -- as you suggest -- a management decision to keep liabilities down.

Many LEOs fire their weapons ONLY for periodic qualification testing. That lack of familiarity with their weapons means that going from cocked to decocked if not a "natural" process, and a decocker is handier and less risky.

I've got several friends who are LEO (as is my son), and they don't really complain about decockers; they're far more concerned about reliability and practical accuracy. (I have only one LEO friend who is a gun nut, and it makes a difference to him, but he's a top-notch IDPA and USPSA shooter. He can make any gun look good.)
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Old September 18, 2012, 08:31 PM   #28
myshoulderissore
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If you think a decocker on a cz is better you are just deceiving yourself !
Oh no you di'int!

I'm not saying a decocker is better, it is just my preference for a carry gun, or the Glock idea... IF I have to fiddle with something, I want it after action, not before immediate action.

Some prefer to manipulate a safety while drawing or coming up to target or once on target. That is what they are comfortable with.

This is why I insist it is individual preference, and subject to practice.

For range guns, who cares? A good gun is a good gun is a good gun!
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Old September 18, 2012, 11:56 PM   #29
Redhawk5.5+P+
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I thought the same when I bought a CZ75B, I got over it.
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Old September 20, 2012, 03:58 AM   #30
Gerry
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Being Canadian, I likely don't understand the mechanics involved in carry since civilians here aren't allowed to carry. So for the life of me I can't understand why a decocker would be advantageous for carry?

I may be way off here but in a situation where I need to draw my firearm and use it quickly, I wouldn't want to use a decocker. Why would I? I'd just carry my gun loaded and either cocked'n'locked or hammer down to begin with.
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Old September 20, 2012, 04:29 AM   #31
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Decockers are a mental crutch. Irrelevant and unnecessary, for police departments run by lawyers. Your thumb can do the same thing as a decocker, and more effeciently.
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Old September 20, 2012, 08:19 AM   #32
aarondhgraham
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Wow! I never knew,,,

Wow! I never knew,,,
There was such antipathy towards decockers.

I'm going to echo what myshoulderissore said,,,
It's a personal preference and therefore I feel it is a moot point.

In a forum such as ours I can't understand why,,,
People are so apt to say someone else is "deceiving themselves" with a "mental crutch",,,
As far as I know there are very few absolutes in the world and that holds especially true when it comes to guns.

My personal preference is for a DA/SA action,,,
I like to carry with the hammer down and safety off,,,
I don't want to have to think about anything except acquiring the target.

At first I didn't think I would trust a decocker,,,
But after owning two DA/SA pistols equipped with them,,,
I have gained confidence in decockers and wish my other 4 had them.

It's an informed opinion my friends,,,
You aren't required to agree with my preference,,,
All I ask is that you don't belittle those of us who share my attitude.

Aarond

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Old September 20, 2012, 08:59 AM   #33
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Spot on, Aarond!
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Old September 20, 2012, 09:25 AM   #34
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Your thumb can do the same thing as a decocker, and more effeciently.
Unless the thumb is shaky or oily. Then it's not so efficient.

I've seen several ND's from manual decocking. I've never seen a one caused by using the decocker.
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Old September 20, 2012, 09:25 AM   #35
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Gerry, when you chamber a round from the magazine the slide has to be in or cycled to its rearward position. That causes the hammer to be cocked. The decocker is for lowering the hammer after loading and prior to carry.
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Old September 20, 2012, 10:25 AM   #36
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Buy a P0-7 Duty and don't look back. Great Omega trigger and you can switch between decocker or safety when ever you want. The ergonomics on the P0-7 are as good as any other CZ IMHO. I was able to find one for less than $400.
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Old September 20, 2012, 11:08 AM   #37
Pilot
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I guess I'm getting crotchity in my older (not old!) age.

Hey, if you want a decocker, sell the B, and get a BD. No worries from me.
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Old September 20, 2012, 11:31 AM   #38
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Biggest problem I have read about regarding the P07 is the lack of holsters on the market.
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Old September 20, 2012, 12:16 PM   #39
myshoulderissore
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Biggest problem I have read about regarding the P07 is the lack of holsters on the market.
Adding to that, "sharp" edges/corners... Really not much else, though, my wife is kinda wanting one right now.
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Old September 21, 2012, 02:41 AM   #40
Gerry
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Gerry, when you chamber a round from the magazine the slide has to be in or cycled to its rearward position. That causes the hammer to be cocked. The decocker is for lowering the hammer after loading and prior to carry.
My CZ Shadows don't have decockers like the Sig. We always use our thumb and index finger for that and let the hammer down gently. If we use just our thumb like the old west wheelers, it makes the ROs nervous after they say "Load and make ready!"

But we're made to practice this gesture thousands upon thousands of times so that during the heat of a match we don't have to think about it. I shoot Production IPSC so the hammer must be down with safety off in your holster before the RO sounds the start buzzer.

I guess my question is why would this be an argument at all? You wouldn't decock your gun during a gun fight, so it's only a matter of convenience and preference, and of course whether your gun has it or not. I've never seen a DQ due to an AD during manual decocking, but I know stuff happens ... hence why your firearm should always be pointed in a safe direction regardless of the gun's (thought to be) condition and the method you choose to lower the hammer.

Edit: All that being said, I still can't personally understand why someone would want to go to the trouble of actually converting a gun to use a decocker that didn't have one. It's not that important to anyone I know. But then again, some people go to great lengths to have a beautifully blued colt .45 ACP parkerized in a crazy bright blue color (I wont name any names)... so who am I to say

Last edited by Gerry; September 21, 2012 at 03:07 AM.
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Old September 21, 2012, 10:04 AM   #41
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Thumb and forefinger? Hammer down, not in the half-cock?

My old 75B manual said to put the weak thumb between hammer and pin, pull the trigger and drop the hammer onto the thumb, then slip the thumb out and let the hammer rest on half-cock - which is the normal "down" method of carry for a CZ.

Why do IPSC rules require a less safe technique, for a hammer position not intended by the designer?
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Old September 21, 2012, 11:24 AM   #42
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All that being said, I still can't personally understand why someone would want to go to the trouble of actually converting a gun to use a decocker that didn't have one.
I don't think the answer is all that complicated, Gerry. If the pistol is going to be carried uncocked (that is, not "cocked and locked" as is common for single-action pistols like the 1911), as MLeake tried to explain earlier, there has to be some way to uncock it after a round is chambered from the magazine. As you know, there are generally two ways to go about this: either by carefully lowering the hammer with your finger(s) and thumb(s) or by using a decocker. Some people, such as yourself, are completely comfortable (and rightly so) in lowering the hammer by hand (understanding that even most advocates of this method would concede that it, though entirely safe if done right, is less "forgiving" in its nature) and others are not so comfortable with this procedure and prefer to use a decocker.
So the answer to your question is simply one of personal preference, which is why the op might want to go to the trouble of conversion (though I personally don't see the cost of conversion to be worth the time, effort and expense and agree with those who have recommended selling or trading the pistol he now has and buying one with a decocker).
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Old September 21, 2012, 04:23 PM   #43
Gerry
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Why do IPSC rules require a less safe technique, for a hammer position not intended by the designer?


IPSC rules state that if lowering the hammer results in a accidental discharge (AD), you are disqualified (DQ'd). There are no rules which state how you must lower it. You could lower it with your tongue if you want. I'm not sure where you got the idea otherwise.

As I said, most IPSC shooters in Production that I know of just grasp the hammer with their thumb and forefinger and while pulling the trigger with the other (normally strong) hand, let the hammer down gently while the gun is pointed safely down range. ROs will get nervous if you do it in such a way that you have less control, such as using your thumb only - movie western style. (I think I already said that.) Your method of pulling the trigger to release the hammer freely with your thumb against the firing pin might hurt a bit depending on your mainspring poundage. Some people release the hammer slowly on their thumb for an extra bit of safety, but it's not necessary.

My wife is 4'10" and about 90lbs with tiny weak Asian fingers, and she can decock her CZ Shadow the IPSC way under the pressure of a match without even thinking about it. During IPSC practice, we only do it as many times as we draw from a holster... perhaps when practicing draw-fire-fire about 200 times max in a day. So it's not something that you do thousands of times in a day that would give you blisters or anything.
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Old September 21, 2012, 05:12 PM   #44
MLeake
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What you call "my method" was not mine - it came from my CZ75B owner's manual.

I assumed you were holding the trigger to bring the hammer all the way down, like it would be after a dry fire, as I have heard of others doing this (not sure if for IPSC) due to rules for whatever they were shooting.

Again, the CZ was intended to be carried cocked and locked, or decocked to the half-cock, as I understand it.
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Old September 21, 2012, 07:55 PM   #45
Gerry
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You must pull the trigger in order to release the hammer to decock the CZ.

I wouldn't know how the CZ is supposed to be carried, since we aren't allowed to carry here and our manuals don't specify. However my understanding is that it can be carried hammer down with safety off, or cocked and locked. I see no use for the half cock position, except during field breakdown to release the slide stop. Our CZs have around a 5 pound trigger pull with the hammer all the way down in DA mode, so a half cock unlocked would scare the crappola out of me if it were being carried in my pants!
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Old September 21, 2012, 07:59 PM   #46
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. But then again, some people go to great lengths to have a beautifully blued colt .45 ACP parkerized in a crazy bright blue color (I wont name any names)... so who am I to say
Gerry, no names need be involved, but can you post a pic of that gun? I would LOVE to see it!!

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Old September 21, 2012, 08:18 PM   #47
Gerry
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Walter, you risk not going to heaven if you lay your eyes upon such sin. But it was not parkarized as I remember now, but Arma-Coat'd they call it here. Same difference I guess. If I find a pic of it, I'll post it for you... just don't say I didn't warn ya!
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Old September 21, 2012, 08:58 PM   #48
MLeake
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Gerry, decockers on the CZ do not lower the hammer down flat a they lower to the half-cock, which is really more like 15% cocked.

Kinda like DAK action SIGs.

Not something that should freak anybody out.
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Old September 21, 2012, 09:19 PM   #49
Gerry
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MLeake, your CZ 75B does not have a decocker, and thus does not decock at half-cock using the decocker. Same with the original poster. Same with my Shadows and other CZ variants I own. Hence I don't know what you're talking about.

You're confusing all CZs with the "CZ 75BD". The CZ 75BD has a decocker and probably has a trigger pull of at least 12 pounds at half-cock. That's just great if that's what you want, and that very specific variant that we don't own could surely be carried at half-cock. But that's not the subject of conversation here as I understand it considering I've never seen this particular firearm mentioned yet in this thread.

But maybe you're right and I'm just a chicken for feeling uncomfortable about carrying a loaded pistol with a 5 pound full DA pull at half cock in my pants. Like I said, we don't get to carry here and IPSC may be a little too safety conscious. Of course the guns with the 5 pound DA pulls are Shadows without firing pin safety blocks as well...

Last edited by Gerry; September 21, 2012 at 09:28 PM.
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Old September 21, 2012, 09:41 PM   #50
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Gerry, I am not confusing anything. I owned a 75B and a PCR, and currently own a P01, P06, and SP01.

And I am telling you that using the manual decocking method from the manufacturer in my 75B's owner's manual, the gun would end up at the same half-cock position as do the decocker models.

This would lead me to believe that is the intended "hammer down" position from the manufacturer's perspective.
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