The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 17, 2012, 10:11 AM   #1
jproaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 214
What training do I need?

So training has been on my mind for quite some time- there's just so much to learn. I want to be competent at minimum in my roles- CC, hunter, armed defender (home and otherwise) and as a member of our County's version of homeland, (armed if one chooses, first responder, general help to the Sheriffs Dept).

So I'm wondering besides setting up a place to develop shooting skills, do I need to attend om training classes.

What's your thought?

John
jproaster is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 11:15 AM   #2
moxie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 513
Here's what I recommend, based on what you stated:

1. Get certified in first aid, CPR and AED (Automated External Defibrillator). Contact local Red Cross, Heart Ass'n., or Fire Dept. for training. Old certification or having been trained in the military doesn't cut it. You've got to get and stay current.

2. Get your CHL, CCW, whatever they call it in your area.

3. Take a defensive pistol course, 1-3 days. Rifle too.

4. Contact local sheriff/police and ask if there is anything you can do to help.

5. Give blood.

6. Vote.

7. Pay taxes.

8. Serve on a jury if called.

9. Serve in the armed forces if qualified and eligible.
__________________
If you want to shoot...shoot...don't talk! Tuco

USAF Munitions 1969-1992
RVN 1972-1973
moxie is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 11:21 AM   #3
jproaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 214
Moxie,
So far I'm involved in all you recommended except my business mAkes jury duty impossible and I've yet to take a real def pistol class.

John
jproaster is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 01:05 PM   #4
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
training tips/legal advice....

I'm not a super expert or a lawyer but I'd add these suggestions(keeping $ & time as factors);
Join the NRA, www.nra.org . They support legal & 2A issues and provide training resources.
Learn & understand the gun laws/use of force laws in your area. Be aware of what you can & can't do or what you can lawfully carry. See www.gunlawguide.com www.usa.gov www.atf.gov www.handgunlaw.us . Atty David Wong wrote a useful legal guide to gun/knife laws for private citizens too. NOTE; some laws or state regulations change too, check often for any changes.
Get good training guides/DVDs, www.gunvideo.com www.paladin-press.com . Take classes or seminars with top instructors or well known programs. Massad Ayoob, John Shaw(Mid-South), Clint Smith, Duane Dieter, Jeff Gonzales are highly respected. SIG-Sauer & Smith and Wesson also have classes-top programs.
A lot of "experts" have sprung up in the last 10 years across the USA claiming to be the "best" for skill training/tactics. Learn more about an instructor or class before you drop a lot of $. You can also take a 4hr workshop or 1 day class to judge the program's merits. Some firearm/tactics instructors are better than others.

Finally, stay fit & follow a healthy lifestyle. I know it's not easy & there are many ways to eat junk food or slack off but if you are in decent shape it may help you in a critical event or even avoid a problem.
Thugs & crooks look for low threat, "easy" targets. You'll also look & sound more credible if you later become a instructor/homeland security official if you are in shape. Sad, but true; people judge you by your appearance in today's world.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 01:16 PM   #5
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproaster
...I want to be competent at minimum in my roles- CC, hunter, armed defender (home and otherwise)...
If proficiency really is your goal, I strongly recommend both a solid defensive pistol class (like Gunsite 250 or Massad Ayood's MAG-40, or, at a minimum, NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home and NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home) and a solid general rifle class (like Gunsite 270).

There is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something wrong, you will become an expert at doing it wrong. So some good training shows you what to practice and how to practice it. It thus helps you avoid bad habits which later on can be an awful hassle to try to correct.

Competently carrying a gun for self defense involves more than just marksmanship:
  • You will want to know and understand the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. You will want to understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did.

  • You will want to know about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. You will want to understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. You will want to know about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter.

  • You will want to develop good practical proficiency with your gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

The NRA Personal Protection classes only scratch the surface, but they at least touch on these subjects and get you started on the right track. From there, you can go as far as you'd like.

As far as riflecraft goes, there are probably a number of different approaches. But here are some of the things we did when I took the General Rifle class (270) at Gunsite:
  • We then went through the various field positions: prone, three variations of sitting, squatting, three variations of kneeling and finally off-hand.

  • Off-hand we practiced a single shot on command from the “low ready.” In the low ready position the rifle is shouldered, but the muzzle is dropped slightly to offer a clear view of the target. On command, we would raise the muzzle, disengage the safety and fire one round – working the bolt to chamber a fresh round and recovering to the low ready to assess.

  • We worked on the techniques of dismounting the rifle from slung carry and then taking an immediate shot. So we’d start with the loaded, on safe rifle slung; and on command we’d smoothly dismount the rifle into a firing position and take one shot.

  • At 200 yards we shot from prone, freestyle. Some of us looped up and some used a bipod and some just went prone without anything else.

  • We shot a course called The Scrambler – seven metal targets in various colors, at varying ranges (mid range, around 100 to 150 yards) set out among the trees. Your job is to hit each target with the first shoot using an improvised rest. We were timed.

  • At 200 yards we dropped to prone on a buzzer and took one shot. We were timed. The idea is to be able to quickly assume an appropriate firing position and get off an accurate good shot.

  • We shot a course called The Simulator – a walk though the woods with your guide looking for targets. There are targets there at 100 to 200 yards. When you’ve spotted a target you’re expected to take appropriation action to “solve the problem”, i. e., assume an appropriate shooting position and shoot the target.

  • We shot moving targets off hand from 25, 50 and 60 yards – both paper and steel.

  • The basic idea was to be able to get a good hit with one shot on a target at an unknown distance, under field conditions, under time pressure.

Those are some of the skills desirable for defensive pistol use and riflecraft in the field. Good, professional instruction would certainly be an important part of developing those skills.
__________________
Formerly known as fiddletown
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 04:52 PM   #6
jproaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 214
Thanks for the very good replies gentlemen.

I'm trying to become informed with some reading (The Art of the Rifle, Modern Day Gunslinger, and a text pertaining to CC dynamics) at present. Have looked into some local training to learn; might have to do some traveling to do better schools however.

Seriously wanting to learn baton skills. I had a guy who just kept staring angrily at me during a local 4th July fireworks event. He didn't like that I brought a couple LEOs into the middle of a family feud that was getting out of hand.

So. If I'm going to keep helping out this way, I want to be better prepared than the average volunteer.

John
jproaster is offline  
Old September 17, 2012, 05:53 PM   #7
moxie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 513
I don't know kow close you are to Fort Campbell/Clarksville, but here is a training facility you might consider:

http://rattlesnakeridge.org/Schedule.html
__________________
If you want to shoot...shoot...don't talk! Tuco

USAF Munitions 1969-1992
RVN 1972-1973
moxie is offline  
Old September 19, 2012, 01:17 AM   #8
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,273
Medical training would probably be the most useful, as injuries are far more common than gunfights.

As far as firearms stuff, being TFL and all...
For anything, make sure you understand how the law applies in your area and your situation. If you don't know what you can legally do, the chances of winding up in hot water after an incident skyrocket.

Pistol:
Get GOOD with your carry piece. Basically, you must know how good a shot you can make under stress, and how quick you can do it. It's not easy to be capable and know your limits. It takes a lot of practice and work. The last thing any of us want is to engage a criminal with that kind of force and not succeed! If you are in first responder mode, it might not just be your safety in the balance.

Rifle:
Depending on your role, the advice for pistol holds the same. Don't think that a hundred rounds a year will make you a great marksman.

General skills:
If your job might see you doing things like searches, you'll want to study up on things like room clearing in various iterations (1-man, 2-man, and team), use of lights, differences between real cover and concealment, various tips and tricks to turn a shot into a safe one rather than putting innocents at risk, etc.

Hand to Hand:
Whatever firearm you carry should not be your only tool. If you think you might get into conflict, you need to be able to negotiate the full spectrum from words to lethal force with or without the tools you normally carry.

Obviously, that is a LOT to learn, so start with the basics, and get darn good at those first. You need to know when and how to use your skills, so basic skills and legal stuff should come first. The rest will follow, in time, if you keep at it.
raimius is offline  
Old September 19, 2012, 08:35 AM   #9
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,225
If your intent is to help your local sheriff's department, you might ask them what kind of help they need. I think many leos are going to be a little leery of someone they don't know volunteering to help arrest someone but there might be areas that they would welcome help. Do they need volunteers to help look for lost kids or hikers? If that is the case, you might want to train in orienteering. It's always a good idea to take some first aid training and if you carry concealed, it would be good to take some classes on both the legalities and handling of firearms.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 08:02 AM   #10
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,427
Training is a good idea. Most folks seek out training at their local gun store, Gander Mtn, etc. They generally have some decent beginning training classes for cc and self defense, and after you get more familiar with shooting you can seek out more specific training to fit your needs.

Some folks are lucky enough to be friends with good instructors and will train with them in their spare time - that's what I do when I get the chance. Personally, I like running more practical concealed carry drills - mock ATM robbery, parking lot encounter, restaurant encounter, etc.
Skans is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 08:25 AM   #11
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,452
Quote:
4. Contact local sheriff/police and ask if there is anything you can do to help.
Dunno 'bout your area, but most rural volunteer Fire Districts and Rescue Squads are understaffed, under-appreciated and unpaid.

The training is good (medical training is far more useful in real world terms than gunfighting skills) and is usually paid for ..... the comraderie is great, for those who are committed and contribute.

I know from experience that cutting someone out of a car and taking them to the hospital, and seeing them walking and talking again is very rewarding. So is saving somone's home and belongings....... "winning" a gun fight is an imperative, yes, but would be, I think, at best, a mixed blessing.

It's not all roses- I have seen some really disturbing things, had some very long nights, witnessed incredible stupidity and it's bloody results..... I would not give it up: Somebody ought to do it, and I'm not about to let someone else pull my weight, or advocate for something I'm unwilling to do, so long as I am able.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 09:38 PM   #12
jproaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 214
Jimbob,
We do all that and more in our group- actually groups since I'm also Cert trained too.

The whole gunfighting tactics etc question has to do with proficiency to accomplish whatever the circumstances call for. I don't want to freeze or freak out if I have to actually draw my weapon. I remember a bad experience 30 years ago when I had to call the "at sea fire team" over the 1mc (ships loudspeakers) when it was believed we were on fire somewhere in the Med about 2am. I can still remember my right knee shaking.

A couple weeks back we were called out to find an older gent with dementia, which lasted a couple hours. That's a typical event. But late that evening on my way home I was requested to assist a the county fair- the power was out (blown fuses). Security at football games; these are th typical. And yes, there's usually a lost child at these events. But we've also had bomb threats to our schools by would be bank robbers. Try holding back the parents in this case.

Ah. There's never enough time to train for everything. But I want o be ready for that bad guy who thinks he's gonna hurt some little girl too.

Thanks again for all who've made suggestions; much to ponder.
jproaster is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 09:47 PM   #13
Camar
Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2011
Posts: 38
You have to have an agressive mind set while you undergo training. You can attend upteen gun classes, but if you do not have an agressive mind set you have wasted your money and time.
Camar is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 07:47 AM   #14
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,427
Quote:
You have to have an agressive mind set while you undergo training. You can attend upteen gun classes, but if you do not have an agressive mind set you have wasted your money and time.
I disagree with this. Perhaps you mean something different than "aggressive mindset", like willingness to actually shoot someone in self defense if it comes down to it. When I think "aggressive mindset", that means someone willing to use firearms to instigate a situation, use a firearm to commit a felony, or perhaps a willingness to make a bad situation worse.

In any event, just about any firearms training done with a qualified instructor will be highly beneficial to someone new to firearms or concealed carry.
Skans is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 10:26 PM   #15
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Skans post; mindset...

I agree with Skans post. Mindset is important but you need to put it in the proper context.
When I went thru my basic training & MP school, our hammerhead drill Sgt(E-6) made us yell; "KILL" before we could eat every meal in the mess hall.
I thought this was just a stupid motivation method and didn't think much of it.

A lethal force event is fast, stressful and filled with chaos. You need to be assertive & fully prepared to use lethal force if needed but you can't walk around like RoboCop or some headcase ready to fight at a drop of a hat.

Common sense & good judgement go a long way, .

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old September 22, 2012, 10:05 AM   #16
jproaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 214
I'm assuming he meant by "aggressive mindset" that one must be aggressive in the learning and applying in training aspect. One can easily think in terms of "good enough" because he/she attends training and then applying the learning in a volunteer context like mine. Many people in groups like ours attend training to be involved in roles requiring a certain amount of expertise to accomplish the medical, security, disaster recovery, etc activities. Some folks are just lax in their learning; and now you have to depend on them
jproaster is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 12:41 PM   #17
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,427
Quote:
Some folks are just lax in their learning; and now you have to depend on them
The greatest thing about self defense is that you don't have to rely on anyone.....and no one has to rely on you. So, any amount of training with firearms, learning, practicing, etc. is a net plus in a self-defense situation.
Skans is offline  
Old September 24, 2012, 01:05 PM   #18
Chuckusaret
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 708
I took advantage of every training opportunity while in the service and attended all the survival/jungle warfare/defensive/offensive/marksmanship training courses that I could. I was able to put the training to good use in multiple tours in Vietnam and survived and much of the training is usable as a civilian. I have also taken several NRA courses.
Chuckusaret is offline  
Old September 25, 2012, 03:58 PM   #19
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,232
Mindset? Did someone say mindset?

The absolute starting place with regard to mindset IMHO is still Cooper's little book, Principles of Personal Defense- http://www.paladin-press.com/product...fense/Handguns . It's indispensable.
__________________
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old September 26, 2012, 10:39 AM   #20
jproaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 214
Thanks for the reference Lee; just finishing Coopers Art of the Rifle. I'm just starting to read these resources.

John
jproaster is offline  
Old September 26, 2012, 11:59 AM   #21
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,809
I'm kind of thinking you will need lots of training because based on what I've been reading here over the last month or so, you may be called upon at any moment to hit a target wearing body armor a hundred yards away in darkness when you've just been woken up. You never know!
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old September 26, 2012, 06:56 PM   #22
dawg23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 393
Quote:
Have looked into some local training to learn; might have to do some traveling to do better schools however.
You say you're in "SE Tennessee." You'd have to drive over the westerly side of the state, but Tennessee has two excellent training facilities:

1. Rangemaster in Memphis, TN. (www.rangemaster.com)

2. Tactical Response in Camden, TN. (www.tacticalresponse.com)

Reading those books is good. But as you are no doubt aware, that's not anywhere close to a substitute for solid, hands-on training that will include top-tier mindset lectures.

If you are able to travel farther, your could look at the previously mentioned Gunsite, Ayoob's MAG-40 class and/or Clint Smith's world-renowned Thunder Ranch (Oregon).

I have attended all of the classes mentioned thus far (except Gunsite 250), plus quite a few more. I will suggest that, for a "first class," you can't do any better than Tom Givens ("Combative Pistol" class at Rangemaster) or James Yeager ("Fighting Pistol" class at Tactical Response). These are two-day classes where you'll shoot 600-900 rounds of ammo. Cost is ~ $400 for these courses (quite a bit less than Ayoob's MAG-40 or Clint's defensive pistol class.
__________________
.
www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net
dawg23 is offline  
Old September 26, 2012, 07:59 PM   #23
cmoulton
Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2011
Location: 757
Posts: 37
Go to a recruiters office preferably Army or dare I say USMC and they can help you out...
__________________
National Guard Infantryman
U.S. Army Armor Officer
Active 3 gunner and USPSA shooter
cmoulton is offline  
Old September 26, 2012, 08:41 PM   #24
sliponby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 134
Quote from Camar: "You have to have an agressive mind set while you undergo training. You can attend upteen gun classes, but if you do not have an agressive mind set you have wasted your money and time".

I see nothing wrong with this statement. If I'm taking a defensive firearms training class, aren't I learning how to fight with my weapon? It's not a square dance class at the community center...
__________________
No one prays harder for peace than the soldier.
"We Dare Defend Our Rights", Alabama State Motto...

Last edited by sliponby; September 26, 2012 at 08:55 PM.
sliponby is offline  
Old September 27, 2012, 11:51 PM   #25
Corrections Cop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 256
Get on the internet and find the CD Series "Bullitproof Mind" By Dave Grossman. Listen to that a few hundred times. It is very good at getting your mindset in a shooting situation. Hands on training is very important but you need to be mentally strong as well. Like others have said muscle memory is very important, you need to be able to draw that gun the same way every time and put it on target, ready to put rounds down range. You can do this in your house with your unloaded firearm.
Corrections Cop is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13463 seconds with 7 queries