The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 14, 2012, 04:12 PM   #1
Vermonter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 954
CCW Q and A

I have been hearing alot of questions lately regarding CCW. Mainly they come from a new shooter who has just sparked an interest in shooting and self protection. The litany of questions amazes me so I figured I would post some of the common questions and the answers. Seeing as CCW is something that this person is Training to do I posted this here.

(mods this brings up a suggestion for a carry issues categlory)

Q: Do I need a new belt? A: Yes or at the very least a very sturdy belt that you already own. A belt specific to a gun and holster is the best way to go about it.

Q: What type of gun is best for me? A: No one but you can answer that question go rent some or try someone elses. See what you are comfortabe with and go from there. Keep in mind this is a CCW so be mindful of concealablity.

Q: What caliber should I carry? A: Find a firearm type that fits you and you are comfortable shooting and carrying. Once you have shot a few decide on the most effective caliber. This is again different for everyone. Remember it matters more how proficent you are not how proficent your gun is.

Q: Do I need fancy dancy TATICIFOOL clothing in order ot conceal my firearm? A: Not unless you enjoy over paying for things. Just buy shirts and pants one size bigger. Of course the pant size doesn't matter if you are carrying OWB or anywhere else for that matter only for IWB.

Q: Should I carry a reload? A: Yes for a revolver because you will only have five or six rounds and for a semi because a failure may best be cleared by simply switching mags.

Q: How much ammo should I carry A: Depends on what makes you feel comfertable only you know the answer to that question.

Q: What is the best holster? A: The one that feels best to you, secures your firearm, allows fast access, and stands out the least. You will accumulate holsters that no longer work or have been replaced by something better.

Q: How much is this all going to cost. A: Bare minimum $2000. Till you are done with a firearm, quality light, quality holster, spare mags (or speed loaders or whatever else, quality gun belt, a few clothing options to adapt, and ammo enough to practice I believe $2000 is conservative. Also professional training is a good thing.

Friends plese chime in and post your suggestions in the Q and A form that I have above.

Thanks for playing, Vermonter
Vermonter is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 04:37 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,789
I should think that a guide for beginners would either include a glossary of abbreviations or avoid them. (ccw, owb, iwb)

I agree with most of what you say here but take exception particularly with your $2,000 price tag.

I spent barely over 1/2 that amount including the required class, 500 rounds of ammo, gun (Glock 33) and other equipment, and EVERYTHING I need for reloading, including bullets/primers/press/etc, for over 1000 more rounds and several other unrelated calibers/dies/bullets.
Drop the reloading supplies and I'd be at $1,000 or less easy.

Otherwise, I think you've got a good start there, even if a good portion is truthfully open to varying opinions.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 05:39 PM   #3
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,322
$2K for equipment seems too high for me. Plenty of guns run under $800 (under $400 for some Rugers, Kel-tecs, etc). You don't need two dozen mags for a carry gun. One or two holsters and a belt need not cost a fortune.
raimius is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 06:27 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,703
I find it interesting that so many of these "CCW questions" threads focus on the the "shopping list" for carrying concealed. But it seems to me the the important question is, "What do I need to know and what skills do I need to be able to effectively defend myself in a violent encounter?"

Being able to most effectively make use of a gun for self defense involves more than just picking the right gun and holster.

[1] You will want to know and understand the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. You will want to understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did.

[2] You will want to know about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. You will want to understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. You will want to know about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter.

[3] You will want to develop good practical proficiency with your gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

Is all this really necessary? That will be up to you to decide for yourself. It will depend on your personal view of what you need to be able to do to believe yourself to be competent. But --
  • If we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem.

  • If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. If all you know how to do is stand there and shoot, that will probably be what you'll do. It might be good enough, or it might not be.

  • The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be.
We tend to focus too much on the tool. We get in extensive discussions about which gun or which ammunition or which caliber is best. But I've come to believe that any gun of good quality that is reliable and accurate in a meaningful caliber will do IF -- you can manage it, you get good training and practice regularly. Conversely, no type of gun will make up for inadequate training and practice.

I'm a strong believer in good professional training for anyone who is considering owning, and especially carrying, a gun for protection. It's partially a matter of being able to skillfully use it under stress. It's also a matter of understanding one's personal responsibility and the applicable law. Jeff Cooper used to say: "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

There is something to be said for choosing a popular brand or type of anything, be is a pistol (Glock, SIG, 1911, etc.) car (Camry, Honda Civic, etc.) or pretty much anything else. If something is popular, parts and service will tend to be more readily available.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 07:49 PM   #5
Vermonter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 954
Clarification

Those were the questions I was asked. I figured it would serve as a starting point not the only point. I do believe I mentioned training if not I meant to. Would you agree that 2k is fair if you get addicted and keep with it?
Vermonter is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 08:32 PM   #6
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Q: How much is this all going to cost. A: Bare minimum $2000.
I think that in the first three or four years after getting my CHL, I might have spent $2000...and bought and sold about two dozen different handguns in that time. And ended that period with three or four suitable carry pistols.

If you are a smart shopper, and buy used at the right price, especially locally, you will lose essentially nothing in your buying and selling.

You will spend money on ammo and holsters, but even the holsters that do not serve you well may be sold on eBay, with minimal loss.
orionengnr is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 09:14 PM   #7
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermonter
Those were the questions I was asked....
I understand. But I always like to bring up training, because that seems to be a blind spot for many starting to pursue an interest in self defense. It's seems that a lot of people are loaded with questions about what gun or what holster, but they don't seem to consider the challenge of learning to use whatever they wind up with skillfully and appropriately.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 14, 2012, 10:04 PM   #8
Vermonter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 954
Frank this ones for you

Q: What is the most important part of ccw. A: Training.

Vermonter is offline  
Old September 15, 2012, 05:52 PM   #9
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 2,226
I dispute that last post. Most important aspect is ATTITUDE. No amount of training is going to do a damn bit of good if you waffle at the critical moment.
Mobuck is offline  
Old September 15, 2012, 05:59 PM   #10
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,703
I agree that attitude probably has a slight edge. The defensive triumvirate places mindset first, skill set second and tool set third in order of importance.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 15, 2012, 06:14 PM   #11
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,686
I will disagre a tad. One must have the attitude and conviction that one can use deadly force to prevent grievous bodily harm.

I have seen in training, two folks come to gun point with sims and one just freeze. The other shot. I have also seen a martial artist (or so he said) be unable to confront an attacker. On the surface, he had the right mind set.

However, well known biological/psychological processes can generate a freeze even in the well intentioned. Significant training and realistic simulations can help control this tendency.

Now you might say that freezing is attitude but I think it is more complex than that. You can avoid the freeze by developing automaticity of coherent emergency responses.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old September 15, 2012, 07:09 PM   #12
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
Those were the questions I was asked. I figured it would serve as a starting point not the only point. I do believe I mentioned training if not I meant to. Would you agree that 2k is fair if you get addicted and keep with it?
I would say that $2k will be far in the rearview mirror in short order for anyone who persues training on a regular basis. 3 or 4 classes would probably cost that much including ammo, hotels, etc. I just think that by far the vast majority do not and never will pursue real training.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old September 15, 2012, 08:26 PM   #13
Vermonter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 954
Attitude vs training.

Personally I think you could train someone into the correct attitude however no amount of attitude can produce adaquet training.

Brian glad to see someone is thinking in the same dollars I am.
Vermonter is offline  
Old September 15, 2012, 10:18 PM   #14
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Depends on the course. I paid $800 for a class last year, plus airfare, hotel, rental car, and 500 rounds of .45. However, it was a five day course, with instructors I had wanted to meet, in a state I like to visit - so I did not view it as unreasonable.

On the inexpensive side, an arbitraty $350 pistol; for argument's sake three magazines; a Simply Rugged belt, holster, mag pouch set; 1000 rounds 9mm range ammo and 100 rounds HST or Ranger T from an online source; and a decent one day class... would be around $1100. Of course, that doesn't incude range fees for solo time, or a wardrobe upgrade.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 15, 2012, 10:58 PM   #15
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Depends on the course. I paid $800 for a class last year, plus airfare, hotel, rental car, and 500 rounds of .45. However, it was a five day course, with instructors I had wanted to meet, in a state I like to visit - so I did not view it as unreasonable.

See, THAT is freaking awesome.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old September 16, 2012, 12:14 PM   #16
Vermonter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 954
brings up another one

Q: How much should I expect to pay for training?
A: Consider travel costs as well but the average course should cost a few hundred dollars.
Vermonter is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10615 seconds with 9 queries