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Old September 18, 2012, 02:50 PM   #26
dahermit
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Blue Train, I remember Jordan holding a ping-pong ball on the back of his hand, drawing and shooting and the ball going into his holster. As I remember, for what it is worth, he was shooting from the hip, did not move the gun to his front. I noticed in the single-action fast-draw videos on utube, they drew and fired in a similar fashion. Their hand would snap back with thumb against the hammer, and tilt the gun back from the holster, firing from the hip. Although the appendix holster position with the extreme backward cant seems to my to offer the most ergonomic position as to wrist and arm, Jordan was so fast that I do not want to over-look his method. Although it seems counter-intuitive to me, it seems well worth investigating.
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Old September 18, 2012, 03:39 PM   #27
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Based on an article in an old gun magazine, he did not fire the gun when he was doing that trick (ping pong ball in the holster). He stated that the hard part of that trick was getting the ping pong ball to actually go in the holster. Actually firing the gun while doing that would make it even harder.

However, he did another trick using a ping pong ball in which he would shoot the ball. In that case, if I'm remembering correctly, his hand was further out, palm up or down I don't remember, but he would shoot the ball before it hit the ground. In the photo illustrating the article, I believe he may have been crouching slightly and the gun was definately not at the hip exactly but pointed down at the ball, obviously, and his arm was almost straight. But that was trick shooting and fast draw was his speciality.

Ed McGivern, also a trick and demonstration shooter, tended to specialize in fast (very, very fast) and accurate target shooting, though he wrote at length on holsters in his book, just not so much on fast draw, fifties-style. He also wrote on unusual shooting positions.

I'd have to say they both experimented extensively with what they were trying to do, even though they didn't really start with a blank piece of paper, so to speak. There's no reason anyone couldn't do something similiar but you won't find many who support that position.

They were both physically gived in one way or another for what they were doing. Jordon was an unusually large man and had extra large hands, which probably made a fast draw with a K-frame revolver much easier.
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Old September 18, 2012, 06:48 PM   #28
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They were both physically gifted in one way or another for what they were doing. Jordon was an unusually large man and had extra large hands, which probably made a fast draw with a K-frame revolver much easier.
As I remember Ed McGivern was a short, portly man. If that be the case it would seem that I should be able to shoot like McGivern inasmuch as I am similarly "gifted".
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Old September 18, 2012, 06:51 PM   #29
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There's no reason anyone couldn't do something similiar but you won't find many who support that position.
You have to remember that I am doing it for fun, on my own range...It has no practical purpose intended.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:52 PM   #30
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The actual draw and how Bill Jordan did it(the book is on it's way). Not having his book yet, by "circular draw", I assume that you mean in a counter-clock wise motion as seen from the right side of the shooter? If so, I am beginning to see how a forward cant would work...that is exactly what I was looking for.
You bring the hand down from the front, swing around just behind the holster, and 'scoop' up the revolver as your hand picks up speed coming upwards. Wrist will be bent. Just as the muzzle clears, rotate the handgun barrel toward the target.

Jordan would start pulling the trigger just as he STARTED the draw and finish pulling it (to fire) just as the barrel came into alignment with the target.

Now this can be DANGEROUS if, for some reason, your draw hangs up in mid-draw (and your trigger finger keeps pulling the trigger!)

Do this as your own risk! But, yes, it's the fastest way to fire the gun. It's also the fastest way to shoot yourself.

Mucho practice with an empty gun, and then later with wax bullets.

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Old September 18, 2012, 10:30 PM   #31
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Barrel slightly forward and holster in front of the hip. That's the way I learned to bust balloons.

Never got fast. Did have lots of fun.
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Old September 18, 2012, 10:51 PM   #32
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Now this can be DANGEROUS if, for some reason, your draw hangs up in mid-draw (and your trigger finger keeps pulling the trigger!)
I have been practicing with live ammunition. Albeit, as I posted, I have (up to this point), been using severely canted, butt to the rear holsters I have made, so the barrel has not been pointed at my appendages at any time. In contrast it is beginning to sound like Jordan's method may be more problematic.
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Old September 19, 2012, 03:46 PM   #33
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No matter how many times I hear or read about Jordan starting the trigger pull as he was drawing the revolver I can't help but take a big deep breath. Guess that willingness to go out on the edge (albeit with practice and common sense) is one of the things that separates the ordinary folks from the extraordinary.

Of course in Jordan's case it also helps to have phenomenal reflexes.

The guy was incredible.
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Old September 19, 2012, 03:57 PM   #34
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The magazine "Guns of the Old West" usually has stories and photos of quick-draw contests. I believe gripmaker Cary Chapman participates in these as well.

Note in most photos the holster is tied, or belted, to the thigh. the holster is canted rearward, and they draw with a back=bending motion and fire as the gun clears the holster.

Also, guns are as light as possible, with aluminum grip frames, ejector rod housings, and even barrels. Aluminum barrels are possible as they fire blanks.

Their entire set-up is built for sheer speed, not practicalbility, which sounds like what you're after.

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Old September 19, 2012, 05:39 PM   #35
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I do not know why there is so much discussion or confusion over this. The fastest guys in the world took combat shooting to the limit, and the gear for it, back about 40-50 years ago. Nothing has changed, except compromises over the holster's concealability, comfort, or cost. The style in this picture is THE fastest drawing holster type available. [IMG][/IMG]
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Old September 19, 2012, 06:18 PM   #36
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Ah yes...

Ray Chapman, Elden Carl, Thell Reed, Jeff Cooper, and Jack Weaver!

Yea.. one left out.. John Plähn.

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Old September 20, 2012, 05:34 AM   #37
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Don't they all look thin!

I found a few articles by or about Bill Jordan in some old "Guns" magazines (Shooting, Hunting, Adventure) from around 1960. The stunt in which he drops something, then draws and shoots it, was done using a coke bottle (they were smaller then) filled with something white. By the time he got off his shot, it looked like the bottle was about a foot from the ground, maybe less, but his right arm was straight and his legs were bent. For more horizontal shooting, I don't think he went into a crouch.

While known for his fast draw shooting with a revolver, not necessarily always with a Model 19 S&W, he was also an enthusiastic rifle shooter and even wrote articles on the subject.

Not surprisingly, the magazine was full of ads for Hollywood-style Western fast draw holsters but there were none of the combat shooting articles you find in magazines today or self-defense stories. If one carefully reads the letters, however, there were apparently serious concerns that we were soon going to be invaded or something. Lots of articles about the police, too. We were much more conservative and civic minded then than we are now.
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Old September 20, 2012, 10:02 AM   #38
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I do not know why there is so much discussion or confusion over this. The fastest guys in the world took combat shooting to the limit, and the gear for it, back about 40-50 years ago. Nothing has changed, except compromises over the holster's concealability, comfort, or cost. The style in this picture is THE fastest drawing holster type available.
Re: THE fastest drawing holster type available. However, the Border Patrol holster Jordan used canted the other way...forward. I would very much like a rationale for why/how the forward cant could be a positive factor on speed of draw. What was Jordan's rationale? Or, was it as others have posted, a concession for some other purpose (riding in a car, horse back, not as assessable for grabbing from behind, etc.)?
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Old September 20, 2012, 10:50 AM   #39
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I'm sure the reason is speed. For a DA revolver, I'm certain it's faster if your shooting position is going to be with the gun somewhere out front, either high or low. I'm with the so-called circular motion on the draw. Otherwise, as I think I said already, you have to do a back and forth change of direction with the handgun. With the circular motion, you are merely rotating the pistol in the desired direction, as your hand is already going in the right direction, more or less.

With a holster that has a vertical drop and no tilt one way or the other, one can still manage a circular draw (if we can call it that) unless the holster is very ridgedly secured on the belt, the belt is equally rigid, the holster is stiff and you are only standing straight up. I find it difficult to avoid some degree of crouch (maybe it's a slouch!) when practicing a draw but I don't pretend to be dogmatic about the style.

I mentioned already that Jordan's holsters were modifications of earlier designs. There were even earlier designs suitable for fast draw, like the Tom Threeperson holster, which is still made by several companies. Most holster makers probably will make a holster with any kind of cant you care to have, provided the design lends itself to variation. Another thing about the Jordan holster (as he used it) was that, although his had a butt-forward cant, it did not otherwise jut out away from his hip. It was still carried vertically as seen from the front.
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Old September 20, 2012, 11:44 AM   #40
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It has to do with the timeline of distinguished shooters, and when they developed their holsters and thoughts. Jordan preceded Cooper, Carl, and Weaver, and his holster design (muzzle to the rear) came about with patrol use in mind. It is a GREAT position for horseback or seated in a vehicle: you can still get your gun out (as opposed to muzzle forward, butt to the rear. I tried that more modern concept in a patrol car, and damned if I could get my gun out very fast! Butt was wedged right against the seat in most vehicles.) But the subject here is SPEED. Jordan was able to make his holster work, fast, because he had arms much longer than most people, and that gave him an edge. He even TOLD me that, at Camp Perry one year in the 1970's (he was a regular there, for the NRA, along with pistolsmith Jim Clark. They were buddies, and hung out together in Clark's shop spot at Perry, answering questions, and being just great down-to-earth guys. Jordan always felt he had an edge because he was so tall and lanky, and could reach, draw, and present a revolver so fast due to the shorter arc of his long arm in the draw.) Then later came the "other guys", who found that the muzzle forward travelled less distance from the holster to the target. Very simple physics, when you watch or experiment with it. The movement of the gun, and the locked wrist from almost start to finish on the draw and shoot make for less wrist and hand action. With the Jordan draw, you have to start with a "weak" wrist, and recover from that as you swing the gun forward. Starting with a locked wrist, almost in the position that you will be shooting from is faster.

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Old September 20, 2012, 04:16 PM   #41
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"I wear it there because Border Patrol regulations specify this position ! " Bill Jordan, 'No Second Place Winner,' p. 28.

Jordan believed that of the 5 different angles of tilt (cant) backwards to forwards, there was no appreciable difference in speed.

Bottom line, find the holster position that works best for you, draw quick and shoot straight.
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Old September 21, 2012, 09:15 AM   #42
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I'd say these different men developed their ideas independently with different influences. The gentlemen about to destroy the camera in the photo above do not really look like their dressed for combat shooting or for law enforcement, in spite of the fact that one of them was a law officer. Of course, I realize their ideas developed from that point.

It would be interesting to speculate how much the different well known shooters from the past influenced one another, referring here to Elmer Keith, Jeff Cooper, Rex Applegate, Skeeter Skelton and the others from the Border Patrol like Jordan and Askins, who also had a holster design named after him.
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Old September 21, 2012, 10:57 AM   #43
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Do not know, but there was an interesting case when one well-known shooter testified under oath about the proficiency of another shooter…both men were lawmen.

In 1978, police director Ed Cantrell, shot police officer Michael Rosa, a dirty cop involved in drug dealings. Problem was, officer Rosa never drew his gun…Cantrell claimed that was because he (Cantrell) was just too quick with his gun. (S&W M10)

Later, at Cantrell's trial, to prove his point, defense attorney Gerry Spence called legendary quick-draw lawman Bill Jordan to the stand. In a demonstration, Jordan had a police officer point a cocked 45 Colt SAA at him and told the officer to pull the trigger. Then, in a nano-second, Jordan drew and fired his own (blank) gun before the deputy could pull the trigger. Judge, jury, and courtroom were stunned at Jordan’s impossible speed.

Attorney Spence then asked Jordan if he had ever seen Cantrell draw a gun and Jordan replied in the affirmative. And then Spence asked Jordan how fast Cantrell was, and Jordan said, to a shocked courtroom, IIRC “he’s a mite faster than me.”

After about 2 hours deliberation, the jury acquitted Cantrell.

Don’t know if Cantrell and Jordan ever compared notes.

Kinda think they got there on their own.
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Old September 21, 2012, 01:03 PM   #44
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That story could be scrutinized a little closer. Not quite as straightforward as it would appear from the bare bones version above.

But, I think it's important to keep in mind two things:
Jordan was a product of his times.
What he did worked for him & should not be construed as the One True Approach for everybody else.

His gun handling was largely developed around quickdraw and what I'd call "stunt show demonstrations", which is not taking anything away from his accomplishments & abilities.

Some of his...attitudes reflected the times, and even Jordan had a bad day when he accidentally killed a fellow Border Patrolman.

His book should be required reading, but it should not be considered the bible on LE gun carry or use.
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Old September 21, 2012, 03:17 PM   #45
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Well, if you think about it, many of us here are products of the same times if we were born in the 1940s. He was one of those who we read about during our young and formative (and perhaps foolish) years.

Some writers would have you believe their way is the one true way (the disciples being "true believers"), others not being so dogmatic. Few would go so far as to suggest that rank amateurs could come up with something entirely on their own to fit their particular situation. Still, most students of this sort of thing will study everything they can get their hands on just the same. A few even start out by talking about the better known gunfighters of the old west, perhaps going so far as to visit the places where things happened or at least their final resting plast.
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Old September 21, 2012, 06:05 PM   #46
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His gun handling was largely developed around quickdraw and what I'd call "stunt show demonstrations", which is not taking anything away from his accomplishments & abilities.
I have nearly finished with his book. The observations that I have made so far are: His interest in fast draw was a result of the observation/analysis of many gunfights on the border. Also, his development of fast draw could not have been developed around "stunt show demonstrations", inasmuch as it was a long process of development done before he was a celebrated pistolero and did any "stunt show demonstrations". Also notable, in his book he states he had studied the "economy of motion", as the basis for his method. So, it would seem that the "stunt show demonstrations", came after he already had developed his method and holster. Of course, he could have been lying, I suppose.

Nevertheless, until I come across another method of fast draw that results from a study of the economy of motion and can clearly show that the newer method has a more efficient economy of motion (none seems to be forthcoming...but if there is, point me to it please), I will follow his advice for my experiment with fast draw.
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Old September 21, 2012, 06:11 PM   #47
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His book should be required reading, but it should not be considered the bible on LE gun carry or use.
I cannot argue with that, inasmuch as I have not seen a Jordan holster or a revolver on a Law Enforcement person in a long time. Our State Cops (Michigan) carry Sigs, and most of the others carry Glocks. None I know of carry Revolvers these days. So there is no danger of his book/method/holster will be considered the bible on LE carry.
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Old September 21, 2012, 08:10 PM   #48
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Old September 21, 2012, 08:46 PM   #49
dahermit
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"I wear it there because Border Patrol regulations specify this position ! " Bill Jordan, 'No Second Place Winner,' p. 28.

Jordan believed that of the 5 different angles of tilt (cant) backwards to forwards, there was no appreciable difference in speed.
Jordan also showed with photos that the gun butt would poke the ribs, be pushed on by the back of the seat in the car and the barrel muzzle of the holster would push the gun up if the butt was not canted forward. As you posted, he made that concession to comfort inasmuch as it did not effect the speed of draw.
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Old September 22, 2012, 05:42 AM   #50
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Well, somebody must still be using Jordan style holsters for automatics, because I have one. No, it doesn't look exactly like his did, to be sure, but it has a slight butt forward tilt, and has a drop of just about the same amount, which puts the trigger guard just below the level of the belt. If the belt is actually worn at the waist, the pistol is perfectly verticle (but with the butt forward cant). Mine was made for the CZ 75 P-01, which is stamped on the back.

It is also a thumb snap holster and the trigger guard is covered. There is a distinct slot for a jacket but that's partly a byproduct of the design for a thumbsnap, if you follow me. I suppose it's an arguable point but it's pretty much a Jordan-style holster, just a little updated.

When I was little, the city policemen, who wore white shirts, carried longer barreled revolvers in swivel holster. You don't see those any more either.
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