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Old September 7, 2011, 09:35 PM   #1
tobnpr
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Red Jacket Firearms...and their NFA gatling gun?

So I'm doing my usual Wed. night viewing of the show...it's a train wreck for so many reasons, but I just can't help but watch it...but that's a whole 'nother subject...

Tonight's episode featured a 12 ga. gatling gun.
Now, I'm no expert on NFA firearms and regs...but at the end of the show, they clearly told the junkyard owner that he could take it home- as in it's HIS- for his fifteen grand...

This is an electrically operated, newly manufactured gatling gun. Gotta be NFA- and 100% illegal for that civvie to own- shouldn't BATF be knocking on that guy's door? What am I missing that would make it legal for him to own that weapon?
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Old September 7, 2011, 09:52 PM   #2
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It would be a hoot on the Dove field though
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Old September 7, 2011, 10:00 PM   #3
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highvel

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It would be a hoot on the Dove field though
Please don't gvie my wife any ideas.

She still kicks my but at bird hunting
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Old September 7, 2011, 10:03 PM   #4
artburg
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I was waiting for the mags to fly off and kill someone.
That show is so wrong in too many ways to count......
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Old September 7, 2011, 10:14 PM   #5
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well

Never seen the show and probably never will but i can bet you that a company that has exploded like red jacket has wouldnt put their SOT at risk by selling illegal NFA items. Im sure the team of lawyers that they have going over every detail costs more than most of us make in a year.
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Old September 7, 2011, 10:51 PM   #6
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IIRC, gatling guns are not NFA because they still require you to manually work the action for each shot?
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Old September 7, 2011, 10:54 PM   #7
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Read again- ELECTRICALLY operated.
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Old September 7, 2011, 11:13 PM   #8
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Gatlings generally made prior to 1898 and a few made around 1900 are not subject to NFA, but hand crank models utilising center fire ammunition outside of that are subject to NFA rules.

That is the reason that the few reproductions one see's use either rim fire or some kind of special adapter that is not considered a centerfire cartridge or in one case primed and loaded barrel fed from a hopper.

Now, since I didn't see the show, I don't know what they did, but, if as I suspect they used several semi auto 12 gauges hooked to a frame work and then spun it by using an electric motor and each shotgun was fired when the trigger was pulled by a mechanism/fixed or gear operated, then it is possible that because each shotgun is still a full intact firearm and since it still require a "Separate" trigger pull each and every time to fire, that it does not fall under the NFA.

Of course this is still speculation on my part and my "Gatling" stage of life was over a long time ago and all the BATF rulings and determinations that I had on file went with the gun when my grandad sold it, so I am going strictly from memory now.
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Old September 7, 2011, 11:53 PM   #9
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Manually operated Gatling guns are fine.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ng-2004-5.html
Quote:
ATF and its predecessor agency, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), have historically held that the original, crank-operated Gatling Gun, and replicas thereof, are not automatic firearms or machineguns as defined. See Rev. Rul. 55-528, 1955-2 C.B. 482. The original Gatling Gun is a rapid-firing, hand-operated weapon. The rate of fire is regulated by the rapidity of the hand cranking movement, manually controlled by the operator. It is not a "machinegun" as that term is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b) because it is not a weapon that fires automatically.
Electronically operated is different. The BATFE is flexible with trigger definitions. Look up the Stutter Gun, for example. Anyways, for something like this, the argument is that the "go" button is now the trigger, and one push of it allows for automatic fire.
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Old September 8, 2011, 07:55 AM   #10
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I caught that also. But, really, I doubt he "took it home". In previous shows there were always stern warnings not to try what they see on TV because it could get the viewer in serious trouble with the Feds.
It is a TV show, there will be some gaffs for laughs.
I doubt RJ put their licenses in jeapordy for a couple yuks.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:47 AM   #11
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I understand about it being "TV"...
It's just that there's so much on that show that's just "wrong"- from a technical perspective, that it just bugs me... like all the things they "invent" that were around long before they were.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:51 AM   #12
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This tv show does not push my like button at all.In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.
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Old September 8, 2011, 11:34 AM   #13
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In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.
Then I suggest you grow up or quit carrying a gun because you're likely to shoot somebody who isn't a threat.

However they look to you, it is not illegal to look a certain way. If you consider them to look like gangbangers, then you really need an accurate view of the current state of street gangs and to dial your prejudice down few notches.


The thread is concerning the legality of a gatling-style gun with shotgun barrels. I wonder if that might not be considered a destructive device more than a full auto... maybe that might be what makes it legal? But then, I would think that an electric drive would indeed make it a full auto. I admit I haven't seen many of the recent shows (they're piling up on the DVR).
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Old September 8, 2011, 02:19 PM   #14
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Has anyone considered that the client may have been another SOT2?
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Old September 8, 2011, 02:42 PM   #15
tobnpr
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Has anyone considered that the client may have been another SOT2?
Ummm. NO.
The guy owns a junkyard, and gave no indication he knew much about firearms at all, let alone have a license.
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Old September 8, 2011, 02:48 PM   #16
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my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.
So you reach for your gun when you see young men with tattoos?


Has any one considered that the BATFE regulates each each machinegun a little differently? Has any one of you considered that Will takes the time to explain how what he is doing is legal but that "boring legal talk" gets edited out?

A crank handle Gatling gun is a legal title 1 firearm. In some cases, something that makes a title 1 firearm fire as a machine gun, *legally* is the machine gun (think HK sears for the model 91, 93, and 94) If he were to register an electric motor that is made to be attached to a regular Gatling gun as a post sample... The motor would then be the machine gun. That way he makes his TV show and can sell the Gatling gun sans post-sample full auto motor for a nice 15 grand.
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Old September 8, 2011, 02:50 PM   #17
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.......
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Old September 8, 2011, 02:51 PM   #18
Willie Lowman
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The guy owns a junkyard, and gave no indication he knew much about firearms at all, let alone have a license.
A friend of mine is a SOT2. He has a computer business. He looks like nothing but a skinny computer nerd. He also can and does make postsample machineguns.

Looks, they can be deceiving.
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Old September 8, 2011, 05:56 PM   #19
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This tv show does not push my like button at all.In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.
That's the most assinine comment I've heard in quite a while. You need to get out more often, but please don't shoot me if you see me in public.

Maybe you should reconsider you're motives for carrying....
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Old September 8, 2011, 06:07 PM   #20
tobnpr
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A crank handle Gatling gun is a legal title 1 firearm. In some cases, something that makes a title 1 firearm fire as a machine gun, *legally* is the machine gun (think HK sears for the model 91, 93, and 94) If he were to register an electric motor that is made to be attached to a regular Gatling gun as a post sample... The motor would then be the machine gun. That way he makes his TV show and can sell the Gatling gun sans post-sample full auto motor for a nice 15 grand.
I'm not following you...
Like I said, I know little about NFA regs.
I do know that it is illegal to own a MG, of any type, that was manufactured after 1986.
So, how does somehow making the motor, a MG (assuming that's what you're saying), qualify it to be a transferable NFA firearm?

I still cannot see any way that dude could own- and possess- that weapon. He took it- motor and all...
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:11 PM   #21
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The guy owns a junkyard, and gave no indication he knew much about firearms at all, let alone have a license.
If it helps, there are plenty of dealers that know little about firearms, too
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Old September 8, 2011, 10:48 PM   #22
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Quote:

This tv show does not push my like button at all.In real life,if one of these young guys were near me in public,my hand would be going onto the butt of my revolver out of fear.They look like some king of gangbanger or wannabees.
*
Then you don't need to be carrying a gun gramps. Not everyone who doesn't dress like leave it to beaver is a gangbanger.
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:22 AM   #23
David Hineline
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Response from Will at Red Jacket when asked about this.

well yes it's a machinegun , ya'll here ought to know that . You also know all that is required to get a post sample . we follow the law closely


That pretty much means the man who took it home is properly licensed or authorized by police/govment agency to possess post sample machineguns.
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Old September 9, 2011, 12:11 PM   #24
Willie Lowman
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Thank you for the clarification David.


tobnpr, gatling guns are title 1 arms. (Not machine guns.) If* the motor was registered as a post sample it could be used to make the (not a machine gun) gatling gun fire full auto. By removing the motor the gatling gun would once again be a title 1 firearm. It never would or could be a transferable machine gun.

*I have heard stories from old farts at the KCR shoots about registering 110 volt drill motors as post samples for the exact purpose of making a hand crank .22 gatling gun have an on/off trigger rather than a hand crank trigger. These stories could be BS. They could be true. If they were, I don't know if the BATF would let something like that slide these days.

However, if the junkyard owner bought the electric powered gatling machine gun (post-sample machine gun) , he is obviously in possession of a Federal Firearms License of some kind.
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Old September 9, 2011, 12:23 PM   #25
tobnpr
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Thanks. We eventually got to the answer...
Obviously, selling junked cars/parts isn't the guy's primary business...

It would be beneficial, to the extent of furthering the general knowledge of the public on such issues, to indicate so as part of the program.

There was a similar episode where they put together a few MG 42's...they made it clear there that the guy putting up the money couldn't own, or possess it.
Why in the world anyone would spend that kind of dough (even air-freighted the kits) to have RJ build a weapon system he couldn't even own is another issue....

Guess we can call it case closed. Thanks for getting the answer.
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