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Old September 14, 2012, 03:03 PM   #26
Hunter Customs
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I don't know if Wyoming has a mag capacity law but here in Missouri we do, so you can't hunt in Missouri with any rifle and use a high capacity mag.

Will a 223 work on deer, it sure will.
My oldest grandson killed his first deer when he was 8 years old using my AR in 223 caliber.
He shot a very nice doe at 175 yards and made a very clean one shot kill.

He was not using light jacket varmit bullets, he was using soft points designed for the task and he placed the shot well.

I was with him at the time and told him he could not shoot at a deer if it was over 200 yards away and he could not take a shot unless it was a good clean shot.

Do I use a 223 for deer hunting, no I do not.

The reasons why is, I know if I had a 223 with me that would be the time I would see that once in a lifetime buck at 400 yards and I don't feel the 223 cartridge is the right choice for that job.

Another reason is I have a decent selection of rifles to deer hunt with, my 280 being my favorite will most likely be the one in my hands.

As others have pointed out, limit the yardage you have to shoot, use a bullet constructed for the job, do your job placing the shot well and the 223 will kill your deer.

I recall seeing a documentary where Eskimos were hunting and killing Polar Bears with a 22 Hornet.

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Old September 14, 2012, 05:01 PM   #27
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We don't have any restriction on rifles. You can hunt deer with a rimfire if you wanted to I suppose. But, I have never heard of anybody doing it.
Matter of fact, I don't know anybody personally who uses a 22 centerfire. So, I don't see a mad rush to start using a 223 and will assume that those that do understand the limitations and aren't complete idiots.
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Old September 14, 2012, 06:21 PM   #28
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Same old arguments from opinionated people with no experience. The 30-30 and 30-06 has wounded more deer than the .223 ever will. I said close in hunting. The man asked if anybody used a .223 for deer. I see where the dissenters are from and they just don't know any better. I hunt in stuff so thick I just watch shadows of deer sneak through at times. Other times I take head shots because it is all I can get. (That should get some "Expert" opinions posted) I have shot and seen many deer missing legs, gut shot, a front hoof shot off, and even one with a hole through the ear. You can hunt with almost any caliber you want, but you can't control the guy using it. I really don't see how it matters what a person uses. I used to live in a special regs area. You want to talk wounding, look into shotguns.
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Old September 15, 2012, 12:47 AM   #29
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Quote:
I see where the dissenters are from and they just don't know any better.
I believe that would be more properly stated as:
"I see that some of the dissenters are from Wyoming and surrounding states, and may actually have a better idea of the terrain and hunter mentality, than I do."

I've hunted on the East coast. I've hunted out West.
Wyoming is its own world.

I hunt in Wyoming several times a year.
My opinions are from experience, not ignorant regurgitated internet blather, as you seem to be inferring.

It's not that people don't understand. It's that we live in different places, hunt different species, deal with different terrain, and use different hunting methods.

Hunters must adapt to the area they are in. As such, Wyoming's consideration of allowing .22 caliber centerfire rifles for some species, must also include consideration of the factors that hunters are dealing with in the field.


As for head shots....
I'm all for it, if the shooter is capable. I put a called shot into the left eye of an Antelope at 650 yards, in 2007; and chose a head shot on at least one Antelope every year except 2011.
(I just wasn't feeling it, with the 25+ mph wind and 35+ mph gusts.)
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Old September 15, 2012, 02:19 AM   #30
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I don't see what is gained by allowing .22 caliber rounds in.

When deer are small and the distances are normal, I've no problem. But in the North plains states that is not the case.
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Old September 15, 2012, 06:29 AM   #31
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I don't see a problem with it. You are not going to have very many people using a 22 centerfire most likely. Most will stick with what they have already.

22 centerfire has been legal, then not legal, then legal again here in Utah.
I have run across only a handful of people using anything smaller than a 243.
I know one lady who used a Mini 14 on everything up to and including elk, she is very patient, will not shoot over a hundred yards, and always puts her bullet at the skull/spine intersection. She has also gone home empty handed several times because she could not get the shot she wanted.

People that will just start flinging lead willy nilly are going to do it with whatever they have, caliber won't matter.

I personally think a .233, 22-250, 220 swift etc with good bullets (not a varmint bullet)would be a far better game cartridge than say 25-20, 32-20, 30 carbine....... just my opinion.

The majority of shooters who will use a 22 centerfire I'm willing to bet are your more experienced hunters wanting a little more challenge. Which usually means they know their limits.
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Old September 15, 2012, 09:05 AM   #32
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I know several people that use 223 on deer and even a couple that have used it on elk. In fact I know a guy that used a cast 223 boolit on deer with great results, tho it was a head shot. Its a very popular round and devastating on hogs, and hogs are way tuffer than deer.

I hope it is leagalized, but I have other guns that I will still use either way. I'm more excited about the 35 cal change. I got some wicked 357 cast loads that should be awesome on deer.
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Old September 15, 2012, 01:16 PM   #33
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I see a lot about the right bullet. Oddly enough, one person mentioned that AND the .257 Roberts. I used Hornady 117 Grain RN for years and it was not the right bullet. It defies all logic, but at closer ranges they would not open up unless you hit something solid. Out around 100 yards and better they opened up fine through the lung area. I know of one other person that had the same problem with the .257 and one with a .243 (I don't know what bullet he was loading) that described the same thing. We all got lucky and got a second fast shot in the shoulder. After you kill enough deer you know instantly if it was a good shot or not almost every time. I had it happen to me twice and the first bullet through looked like I ran a target arrow through. Actually, the reaction made me think I shot under the deer and missed. After that I only shot into heavy parts of deer with the .257R. I never had a problem using Hornady Varmit bullets at close range on deer. Close up they are fine. If you start thinking heavy bullets, you are already planning on using that .223 in a manner that is stretching the capabilities of it. I would not hunt with mine on a day with heavy gusts of wind.
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Old September 15, 2012, 09:11 PM   #34
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The bullet weight, design and intended use of the bullet is a major factor. If the proper bullet is used, a .223 could be an acceptable deer cartridge. We could say the same regarding the .243 Winchester. Some use ammo with bullets designed for target, coyotes or varmints instead of deer: and the results can be very disappointing. However, if the proper bullet is used, a .243 Winchester can do the job well on deer.
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Old September 15, 2012, 10:58 PM   #35
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I have found "The proper bullet" to be very disappointing at times. I have been using a 7.62x39 for a long,long time and always use a 150 grain corlokt. The factory offerings years back were less than impressive. I absolutely believe in reading all I can about something I am working on. I just have the good sense not to believe everything I read.
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Old September 16, 2012, 08:40 AM   #36
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I guess I just don't understand the problem. I know that with some of the modern-design bullets for the .223, it's a quite-adequate deer cartridge. But the general caveat has to do with the size of the deer, the type of shot and the range.

Not a lot different from the way I've used my .243 with the 85-grain HPBT bullets. Neck shots, cross-body heart/lung; no angling shots--and, mostly, a 200-yard limit.

But if I'm hunting where long shots are probable and particularly if the deer are generally larger than in central Texas, out comes the '06. IMO, reliable penetration for angling shots becomes a controlling factor.
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Old September 16, 2012, 09:33 AM   #37
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Hopefully, I will soon see the effect of a proper .223 bullet on close range deer.
My 7 & 8 year old boys are going hunting for the first time this fall.
They will shoot from a blind and use a tri-pod.
Rife is a Windham SRC with Bushnell-TRS red-dot.
Shots will be restricted to 30 yards on broadside or slightly quartering deer.
Bullet is the 60 gr. Nosler Partition, chronographed @ 2,807 fps out of the 16'' barrel, my handload.
The .223 AR with recoil absorbing semi-auto action and adjustable stock was the best tool for the job.
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Old September 16, 2012, 04:35 PM   #38
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I find it interesting that some TFL members favor banning .223 because some hunters might take foolish or unethical shots.

I wonder if those same members prefer to make it very difficult to get a carry permit...

And, I wonder if those same members support restrictions on legal adults, who happen to be under 21.

When we start supporting restrictions out of fears for what some bad apples may do, where do we stop?
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Old September 16, 2012, 07:12 PM   #39
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Art Eatman

I have to agree that if you start taking long shots with a .223 you should probably just get out your 6.5 or .308. I load run of the mill 70 grain SP in my .22Hi-Power. I am pretty much stuck with these bullets because of the weird diameter. My AR.223 with Varmit bullets definitely messes up a deer more than the bullets loaded for the HI-Power. If I could find .228 Varmit bullets, I would definitely load them for the Hi-Power.
I have had problems in the past with bullets not measuring up to the advertising. Trying to compensate the short comings of a round with a different bullet design usually is a mistake. I stay away from the super duper expensive bullets that claim awesome penetration. These bullets usually do not do well at close ranges.
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Old September 17, 2012, 12:15 PM   #40
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Brian don't you find the bigger bullets makes for easier tracking of wounded animals?

We have tons of hunters with 6.5x55 here, and it is a good round if placed well, but pigs and moose can tend to not bleed too much from bad hits, same placement with a 9.3x57(another pretty common calibre here) leaves much more to track

now this is circumstantial at best becuase it is not like I am a professional tracker or anything

And more concerning the topic the .222 is great for our most common deer the roe but I have a sneaky suspiscion that a big deer for us would be a tiny one for you
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Old September 17, 2012, 11:10 PM   #41
Brian Pfleuger
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I've never found that to be the case. Good shots leave good trails, usually. Bad shots usually don't.
Exit wounds can be very helpful, especially for tree stand hunters whose entry holes tend to be high and not bleed much.
I've never noticed that larger bullets leave more blood.
Frankly, when the shot is right, the trail is easy and short. When the shot is wrong, the trail is tough and long. That's the only thing I've seen.
The problem with personal experience is that it's limited and fairly random. That's why I like to rely on the experience of (trusted) others ALSO. I've personally seen what should have been all but perfect shots result in lost animals and shots that should have been awful result in a dead animal in 30 yards. It just happens.
An animal (any animal) which has deflated lungs will be dead in no more than 150 yards or so. If its not, you didn't deflate the lungs.
I go back to the fundamental argument though. It's not that I would recommend a 22 cal for deer hunting, it's that I think the government generally ought to keep their friggin nose out of peoples choices.
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Old September 18, 2012, 12:47 AM   #42
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I have told this a couple of times before on here. I shot a doe straight broadside through both lungs with a 300 Weatherby using 150 grain factory loads supposedly 3500 FPS. I found two little drops of blood and the deer ran about 300 yards. Only reason I found her is because I saw where she went. I'm not sure what all that means other than that bigger faster bullets aren't going to give you perfect results all the time either.
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Old September 18, 2012, 01:23 AM   #43
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My suggestion would be to de-regulate the cartridge and have a restriction on the bullets
A 223 is ok for deer if the bullet used doesn't break up or fragment (as many do because they were designed as varmint bullets.)

Perhaps the best way Wyoming law could be modified would be to allow center fire 22 cal rifles that fire bullets of 60 grains or heavier and those bullets should pass some sore to test overseen by Game and Fish to be sure they will hold together. It may sound impractical, but I'd bet there are several wardens in this state who would volunteer their time to test bullets in ballistic media to get them on the "approved list"

As a gunsmith, I would do the same if the Game and Fish Dept wanted some sort of test. I'd do it free of charge.

I have a lot of experience with such things. I was the CEO of a bullet company for a while, and doing ballistic testing is something I’d be happy to do for hunters if they would provide the bullets to test. Some will not be adequate I know, but some other would I am sure.

I think a 257 Roberts and a 243 Winchester should be the “ruler” to judge the 22s by. I’d set up a test to measure penetration and cavitations on the standard 243 and 257 and see which .224 bullets would give equal penetration with at least 80% of the cavitation. I believe that would be realistic criteria to judge by.

Just a thought……….
What are your thought gentlemen?
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Old September 18, 2012, 01:47 AM   #44
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Little tough to enforce don't you think ?
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Old September 18, 2012, 08:34 AM   #45
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Wyosmith, I think that worrying about what hunters use is the old "A solution looking for a problem." From Internet chatter here and at THR, it doesn't appear that losing deer from use of a .223 is of any significance. Too many happy campers, as near as I can tell.

We've had the same thrash about the 7.62x39.

The bullet folks R&D has given us useful bullets for deer and as near as I can tell, hunters look to buy effective ammo.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:16 AM   #46
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What are you going to use to test them? I was sitting at the range one day and while talking to someone, a groundhog came out in front of the 100 yard line. I had a re-cut Arisaka (6.5x55) with open sights. The guy with me didn't have his gun out yet so he said "Go ahead". That 160 grain RN tore it in half. Only a small piece of skin holding it together. That was a "Deer bullet". That same bullet will go through a couple packs of tightly bound newspapers before it starts to deform. I swung on a moving deer and shot an 8" maple tree (It only wounded it because I saw it grew over later) about 15 feet in front of me. It went all the way through and had a jagged hole coming out. You would think 8" of green maple would expand a 7x57 140 grain bullet to the point where it would not exit. On the other hand, I never had expansion problems in soft parts of deer with it. I don't think you can accurately regulate bullets to game.
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Old September 18, 2012, 09:32 AM   #47
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
Just a thought……….
What are your thought gentlemen?
My first thought is just what Art said, a solution looking for a problem.

I understand your concerns but in the many places wherein 22 caliber weapons are already legal for deer we are not seeing a problem.

On top of that, many personal stories shared in this thread and many others provide ample evidence that simply using the right bullet is not the end all, be all solution.

People get lucky with entirely inappropriate choices and unlucky with cartridges and bullets that should be ridiculous over kill. (I've shot woodchucks with 12ga slugs and every single one has made it back to it's hole, leaving a nasty mess of blood and guts behind, yet in years of trying and hundreds killed, only one has escaped my .204Ruger)

In short, I just don't think the problem is nearly the magnitude that you do. I don't really think there's a problem at all.
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Old September 18, 2012, 01:23 PM   #48
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Well, th e meeting is tonight. I will let you know how it went and what the G&F is thinking. Great discussion. Thanks.
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Old September 19, 2012, 09:31 AM   #49
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Well, after last night's public meeting, I won't be surprised if Wyoming allows .223 for deer and antelope. I will also be surprised if they put any bullet weight restrictions into the new law.

Most were for the change, some dissenting. Many of the same arguments posted here were vioced by sportsmen.

Thaks, hunters.
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Old September 19, 2012, 10:33 AM   #50
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I still don't see how the bullet weight restriction would work from an enforcement standpoint. Other than pulling a bullet and weighing it I'm not sure how it could be done.
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