The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 18, 2012, 07:59 AM   #26
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,173
Silly/harmful or not, some pretty reputable outfits carry it, undoubtedly because it sells -

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSe...ry=zombie+ammo

http://www.natchezss.com/index.cfm#q%3Dzombie

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/s...=zombie&eMode=

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/searc...h-All+Products

http://www.luckygunner.com/catalogse...esult?q=zombie

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/adva...s_id=&x=13&y=7


The comments in the article by Marty Hayes are a bit far reaching to say the least. What difference does it make what kind of targets or ammo you shoot? If I practice shooting into ballistic gelatin with the latest and greatest hollowpoints (and post a video of it) does it prove that I am planning to go after human targets? What about if I shoot at human form outline targets at the range and save my best targets showing nice groups of headshots? If these actions will be used to show a jury that I have homicidal tendencies, then I suggest we all arm ourselves with ball ammo and weapons in existence at the time of and in conformance with the Hague Peace Conferences of 1899 and 1907, or better yet just disarm completely. Then we have nothing to worry about, right?

I can see and argue both sides of this argument, but just playing devil's advocate here, I think Marty needs to realize that shooting can be about fun as well as about defensible self defense. If shooting a few zombie targets with zombie ammo is a way to get the kids hooked on shooting, then why not?
spacecoast is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 08:25 AM   #27
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,327
"What difference does it make what kind of targets or ammo you shoot?"

You're joking, right?

It can make a HUGE difference because perception is all to often more impactful than things like the truth.

More and more ranges are no longer allowing "human" shaped targets.

We've all seen the Osama Bin Laden targets. Most people chuckle about that.

But how much good would it do if a group like Stormfront came out with their own line of targets showing prominent African Americans?

Think it would matter then?

Think people who aren't gun people would stop long enough to make a distinction between "racist *******s" and "general gunowners," or would they simply rush to judge?

In many communities, no they wouldn't make that distinction.

While zombie targets and ammunition may not really detract from the general perception of gunowners, they certainly don't build on it, either.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 08:51 AM   #28
PH/CIB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 281
Personally I'm waiting for the wooden "Vampire Killing" bullets to come out! Be great to shoot with Kate Beckinsale and Milla Jovovich at the range!
__________________
Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net
PH/CIB is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 09:04 AM   #29
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,173
Mike, I do think there are lines we shouldn't cross (not that I am prepared to state exactly what those are), but I'm not ready either to yield everything to the winds of political correctness, as has been demonstrated to fail in the UK, where if anywhere the need to keep and know how to use a firearm should be very prominent in the minds of its citizens given the events of only 70 years ago.

The aversion to human form targets at certain ranges is a bad/sad trend on many dimensions, not the least of which is the opportunity to shoot something the same size/shape as a potential attacker. Personally, I find the graphic targets of a murderous knife-wielding attacker with his arm around the throat of a scantily clad woman to be repulsive, and would never use one, but I do enjoy shooting my own human outline targets. Fortunately my range not only permits these kinds of targets but makes a lot of money selling the plastic versions to customers.
spacecoast is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 09:09 AM   #30
Denezin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
The new z max isnt that effective for "zombie killing anyways" if it did indeed happen i would choose a fmj or a efmj. penetration is key and is somethins dead i dont believe it will matter if it expands or not.
Denezin is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 09:26 AM   #31
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,327
This isn't political correctness.

Make no mistake about that.

This is taking a simple look at the situation and saying "why in the name of all that is holy are we shooting ourselves in the foot yet AGAIN?"

It's painfully evident to me that gunowners are, collectively the worst enemy we could ever hope to have, and this is just another, albeit somewhat less obtrusive, example of it.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 09:35 AM   #32
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,552
MIKE... are picking on me ??? ( note fat guy & low ride holster )

I'm kidding I might resemble the figure more than I like, but since I'm a single action revolver guy ( almost as crazy as "that" other crazy single action revolver guy ) I don't fit the mall ninja image...

BTW... I don't shoot people shaped targets, or even Zombie targets... I'm a cheap sob... I shoot circles on regular old note paper most of the time ( I can imagine the human shape if I feel the need )

fact is I do worry about public perception, & while I have had my share of the semi auto stuff, & used to be into the "black rifles" I now more resemble the "mall cowboy" than the "mall ninja"

... I'm hoping I'm percieved as less of a threat than the mall ninja looking dude... if that's the case, I'm getting across the image I'm after...

... as a huge reloader, I don't have a problem buying the green tipped bullets ( if they are cheaper ) I just put them in the same plastic ammo boxes I'd put the red tipped ammo...

... on a more serious note... I don't play paint ball, or air soft... & I don't like young people playing video games that could condition them to shooting humans, & then transition them to shooting people with ( ever more realistic looking ) air soft, & paint balls... IMO, we are only developing a generation prone to do Colorado Theater "type" incidents... I'd have no trouble ( as it is ) transitioning from my circles on paper to bad guys in a real life situation if needed... I don't like that a whole generation of young people ( both emotional stable, & total wackos ) are being conditioned to shoot people on their next "bad day"
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 10:09 AM   #33
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,173
Quote:
This isn't political correctness
Whatever you want to call it, it's advancing the secular theory that we are condition-able animals (and not thinking human beings with a soul) who cannot distinguish between a paper target and a real life situation. I prefer to believe that my Creator has given me the ability to know the difference between a video game, target shooting and the possibility of taking a life. Going along with artificial restrictions on what or how you shoot contrived in the mind of some genius playing to the misplaced emotions of the antis doesn't help our cause, either.
spacecoast is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 10:29 AM   #34
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,015
Thanks in part to Mike, this forum has been fairly free from some of the worst.

It is obvious that people have adopted "zombie" as a euphemism for bad person because we don't promote the idea of killing people, even though we need to recognize that defense of ourselves against the actions of another may force us to that.

But we don't need to emphasize it. One small thing we can do is to stop calling all firearms "weapons". I realize this is due to some folks wanting to play soldier (some of whom could not get through the first day of basic training), but most of our firearms are not "weapons." Even if a firearm carried for self defense might be a "weapon", most sporting arms are neither intended nor used for that purpose. An antique, like a Civil War rifle-musket, may have once been a "weapon", but that term is hardly suitable today.

JIm
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 10:30 AM   #35
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,327
What did I say... we are collectively our own worst enemies at times.

Sigh.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 12:10 PM   #36
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
I am a younger guy so let me interject a bit here.

My friends and I from time to time have joked about "getting ready for the zombie apocalypse". Do we really think that the dead will rise and only a bullet to the head will stop them? No; the ZA is just my generations WWIII as I view it as silly as I know that sounds.

Joking about "ZA" day, talking about what we would do, where we would go etc is just a way to lightheartedly talk about the very real; very scary to some topic of being ready should SHTF.
In general amongst younger people it is a much more socially acceptable topic to talk about things in generic "ZA Day" terms. I mean seriously...I could carry on a conversation with any college friend, pro or anti gun about what they would do if a mob of zombies was tearing through their neighborhood, how you would get food etc.
The much more realistic topic of what you would do if the economy collapsed and suddenly you had a mob of 20+ people breaking into every home on your block, looting the homes then killing the occupants. In general the conversation would stop right there even though that is the far more likly of the two situations because too few younger people are mentally equiped to wrestle with such difficult subjects.


While I agree all it would take is some off his meds nutjob; equipped with a "zombie killer" 1911 and a "zombie killer" AR-15 shooting "Zombie killing" ammo going out and shooting up a bunch of "zombies" to screw us over big-time I think some of you are missing the point.

Any "evil deed" done with a gun will be blamed on the entire community of firearms owners regardless of the gun, type of ammo and suspect. It wouldn't matter if Al Capone himself was resurrected through modern science and illegally purchased a gun to re-commit the St. Valentines day massacre; the story would be about "easy access" to weapons, "gun" crime and how "common sense gun control' could have stopped it.
We are and forever will be until we somehow get more allies in the media guilty until proven innocent; in this case the "good guys wear black"


I do not see the need to pay double or triple the cost for a zombie target but I do enjoy shooting at human shaped targets; my first ever target was a "gang banger" drawn on a piece of 3/16 plywood by my dad.

I also do not see the need to buy zombie themed guns but some people like Neon Green and I won't hold it against them.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 12:12 PM   #37
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,649
Quote:
We've all seen the Osama Bin Laden targets. Most people chuckle about that.
Trust me, I've seen worse. I've had people complain that I'm abrogating their 1st Amendment rights because I won't let them shoot pictures of current political figures. It doesn't matter if they're portrayed as zombies, clowns, or monkeys: it's in poor taste, and it gives us all a bad image.

The "zombie" euphenism does seem to be code-speak among some quarters, much as the term "goblin" was used a decade or so ago. Code-speak for whom? Take a guess.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 12:17 PM   #38
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
Quote:
Trust me, I've seen worse. I've had people complain that I'm abrogating their 1st Amendment rights because I won't let them shoot pictures of current political figures. It doesn't matter if they're portrayed as zombies, clowns, or monkeys: it's in poor taste, and it gives us all a bad image.

The "zombie" euphenism does seem to be code-speak among some quarters, much as the term "goblin" was used a decade or so ago. Code-speak for whom? Take a guess.
I STILL hear talk of what would hapen if the "Goblins" or "Trolls" from Chicago or Milwaukee got out of hand at gun ranges and gun shows all the time. Though I have been slowing hearing the term "Zombie" slipped into conversation where you would not expect it.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 12:28 PM   #39
Father Time
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2007
Posts: 632
First of all I will say I love movies... All kinds action, horror, mystery, sci fi,
So I have watched and enjoyed several zombie movies. I understand the marketing and such. Is it in poor taste? Yeah, kinda.

But none of this is anywhere near as bad as the "Sons of Guns" and "American Guns". These morons do 10x the damage to responsable gun ownership than all the zombie crap in the world. The only people that have even heard of Zombie ammo are gun owners. Yet anyone with basic cable tv thinks gun owers are all backwoods hicks or worse (looking at you "Doomsday Preppers")
This kind of portrayal of gun ownership sickens me. I'm a pretty calm person normaly but that Kris guy from "sons of guns" raises my blood pressure. I would give a $1000 to kick him in the teeth.
Father Time is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 09:57 PM   #40
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
Quote:
Nothing says "responsible gun owner" to me like the 600 pound guy decked out in all camouflage (sp?) wearing a low-ride holster (it's low ride because it's slipping off his gut) who proceeds to shoot up the range because he doesn't know the first thing about how to shoot a gun.

But man does he look GREAT in his camo and low ride...

And let's not forget his ninja boots...
I've seen something like that, this guy was shooting a High Point looking like a "fat" SWAT officer want to be. He actually had a friend with him, or it was his stupid younger brother.
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 11:51 PM   #41
Frasier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2011
Posts: 191
If the dead ever did rise up, would that change the anti's minds about guns, or would they blame guns for the zombie apocalypse?

Even my very anti gun younger sister said she would head straight to my place if the zombies were to rise up, and she is all for U.K. style strict gun laws. I think there was a mix up at the hospital.
Frasier is offline  
Old September 18, 2012, 11:59 PM   #42
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,936
It's great that we all have... and are entitled to our own thoughts and perceptions/opinions of things happening around us.

One thing to remember , if the dreaded day ever comes when we find ourselves in front of a jury, those jurors (who, are incidently going to determine our fate) may not see things like we do....

....too, I do most all my shooting here at the house. There are family and guests that come here. A few guests don't shoot and are 'sitting on the fence' so to speak on gun ownership. What perception do I give them if they come here and I've got nothing but human silhouette and zombie targets all over the place?
Think I have much of a chance of convincing them that shooting is about fun and not just about SD?

Also, every couple that comes here has kids. I've got grand kids.
Again, do I want to introduce these kids into shooting with the perception of shooting human formed targets or do I want to teach them the art of shooting as a fun sport with targets such as balloons, targets that make noise etc.

Perception's a funny thing.

Having rode motorcycles for the last 35yrs. Having a few tatts. Used to have longer hair(it's falling out now ). I and the group of us that used to ride together have been politely asked to leave certain establishments cause the way we were dressed/looked. No trouble, no fuss...just peoples perception.
Funny thing was, a couple of the guys riding with us that looked the worse were undercover LEO's another was a CEO with GM.
Again, Perception.

Lastly, anyone who thinks perception hasn't/doesn't way heavily in a courtroom has never been around many courtrooms. Perception is the reason a good attorney takes his client that may be the worse, guilty piece of human flesh alive and on trial day, grooms them to look like they just stepped out of a monastery.

As gun owners, we need to think and be very careful what perception we emit.
shortwave is offline  
Old September 19, 2012, 08:00 AM   #43
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,173
Quote:
As gun owners, we need to think and be very careful what perception we emit
Given your history, people's perceptions don't seem to have bothered you nearly as much in the past as they do now. Maybe it's the grandkids. I'm afraid I'm going the other way - the older I get the less I give a darn.
spacecoast is offline  
Old September 19, 2012, 08:23 AM   #44
Father Time
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2007
Posts: 632
Quote:
A few guests don't shoot and are 'sitting on the fence' so to speak on gun ownership. What perception do I give them if they come here and I've got nothing but human silhouette and zombie targets all over the place?
Hmm... Now the zombie targets could seem a bit much. However I've taught my sister and several female friends of mine to shoot. Most of them... No forget that. ALL of them got interested in shooting as a form of personal protection first. Finding out if was fun came later. Not one of them balked at the human silhouette's. One of them even ask why we were aiming for center mass and didn't "shoot em in the head". I think in such cases its more about the mindset of the person wanting to shoot.
And for the people on the fence. Well if you can speak intelligently then it shouldn't be much of a problem. A long time ago the mother of a girl I was dateing asked why I would need "that" gun. And I calmly expained to her that I belive in overwhelming force when faced with a life or death confrontation. I will take any advantage I could get and use it to its full potential. Maybe I was less of a idiot that day because my awnser seemed to satisfy her.

Quote:
I and the group of us that used to ride together have been politely asked to leave certain establishments cause the way we were dressed/looked. No trouble, no fuss...just peoples perception
Maybe they just had a dress code? I've been asked to leave to but I soon realised it wasn't the kind of restraunt you wear blue jeans to. (I had never been there before)
Father Time is offline  
Old September 19, 2012, 11:34 AM   #45
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,936
Quote:
Given your history, people's perceptions don't seem to have bothered you nearly as much in the past as they do now. Maybe it's the grandkids. I'm afraid I'm going the other way - the older I get the less I give a darn.
Yes, you're probably right about caring of the perception I put off nowadays versus my younger years. I feel the older I get the better example I should set for things I care about. Too, the older I get the more I appreciate/enjoy my rights and freedoms I have to bear arms, hunt etc. and am more aware of the various groups out there that are gaining strength trying to take my rights away from me.

Just don't want to be creative for them(the anti's) and give them any undo ammo to do that with. They will create enough of that on their own.

Father Time ,

I appreciate your comments about teaching people the art of shooting for SD but there sure is a lot more to shooting then SD. In my situation, while SD is a by-product of shooting, I'd rather introduce someone to the sport of shooting as a fun thing rather then put the emphasis on SD. Especially when dealing with kids.
shortwave is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 01:28 PM   #46
PH/CIB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 281
While I have never bought any "Zombie Ammo" or participated in any "Zombie Shoots" which we have had at one of our ranges, I am not against them. I feel the ammo is overpriced and the shoots although probably fun not realistic and not taking seriously something very serious. However maybe I need to lighten up a bit and the guys who seem to enjoy them if they handle firearms safely and responsibly I am all for it.

As far as the "Anti Guns Folks" having a problem with it, I would hope they could separate having fun and fantasy from reality but maybe not.

Silhouette targets are a different story, while I enjoy shooting bullseye and shooting small groups, I also enjoy and think necessary combat shooting dead center mass as quickly as possible and for this I think a silhouette is more realistic as we do not walk around with bullseyes on us. It is funny how the "Anti Gun People" do not mind others doing their killing for them, the military and police, yet want to keep the public disarmed except for criminals.
Perhaps if the concealed carry public had more stringent requirements on gun safety, responsibility and marksmanship that was standardized that might mitigate some of the "Antis" fears.

I think everyone who conceals and carries a firearm should have to shoot the hostage silhouette target. I always advise that I would never ever make that shot unless I knew for sure the bad guy was going to kill the hostage. When I put all my rounds in the bad guys head on the hostage silhouette target and the shooters I am with ask why I would not make that shot, I reply I am under no stress and the target is not moving.

When the shooters with me take their turns shooting at the hostage silhouette target and put most or some of their rounds in the hostage they know exactly what I mean.
__________________
Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net
PH/CIB is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 03:49 PM   #47
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,310
I think it has a lot to do with the genrational thinking. I am of the 35 YO age group so I am in the middle in a sort of way. I grew up watching movies. Some of those were zombie movies. Also with the video games like Resident Evil shoot 'em up zombie games became quite popular. They still sell well also.

For some it is a means to get their flabby buttocks off of the sofa, and to the range. For some it is just pure for spits and giggles. Though there are always those who go way too far overboard.

I have shot my share of zombie targets that were provided for free from the range. Though I am cheap so I realy like to take advantage of freebies.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 04:07 PM   #48
PT-92
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2007
Location: "Undisclosed Bunker"
Posts: 1,429
Quote:
psychobilly

Missed the Boat...
I guess I must confess my confusion, or at least being out of the picture But,
after reading yet another straight faced ad re Zombie killers in all calibers, gauges,wts et forms, what are these people talking about? Please enlighten moi. Or least let me know what catagory I can find such arcane info...
I think a good analogy to understand how 'some' people literally fall for the zombie-craze would be Orson Welles "War of the Worlds" about an alien invasion by Martians which caused a genuine public panic in the U.S. among a great deal of people--this happened in the late 30's when the "Alien-UFO" craze was at its height for the time. I remember my grandparent's telling me about this and Spielberg made a film about it a few years back. People will be people I guess .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War..._(radio_drama)
__________________
NRA Life Member
“A free people ought...to be armed..."
George Washington
PT-92 is offline  
Old September 20, 2012, 07:48 PM   #49
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
I wouldn't let a box of Zombie ammo in the house. The loose cartridges I might.

Bad idea, bad image. Kid stuff that encourages magical thinking. To blur the lines between fantasy and reality is a mistake that could promote irresponsible use of the product to soft headed individuals.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old September 21, 2012, 05:55 PM   #50
KevinTaylor1214
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2012
Location: Niceville, Florida
Posts: 12
Everyone knows Zombiemax is the only effective ammo against a real zombie.

But in all seriousness I wouldn't buy that crap at a discount. It's just manufactured to appeal to the young morons (which I admit I could almost fit into that category) that just want to look cool with a gun.

Last edited by KevinTaylor1214; September 21, 2012 at 06:25 PM.
KevinTaylor1214 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13573 seconds with 7 queries