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Old September 11, 2012, 05:07 PM   #26
Marquezj16
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There only person on record for getting in "trouble" in a criminal prosecution for using a particular type of ammunition, was someone using a 10mm as it was more "powerful" than what the police used in Phoenix.
That was a mess. He did win his appeal, although it took three years later.

So, alot of people say the smart choice would be to find out what your local PD use, but what if you don't have the same caliber, for example, local PD uses .40 cal and you have 9mm or 45 ACP. Would you then just choose the same manufacturer?

Also reloads were mentioned as a no-no. Does anybody have the other side to that argument? For example, I had some Fiochi 45 ACP with 230 gr XTP and I loaded some ammo using the same 230 gr XTP into the once fire Fiochi shells. How would they know if the round I used was a reload?
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Old September 11, 2012, 05:45 PM   #27
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I carry these in my .40 ( http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgist...d=3472900.7552) with 2 backup mags of Hornady "Zmax". My carry pistols are loaded with Hornady Critical Defense. Undoubtedly if in a SD situation I would be most concerned with removing the imediate threat. Also there is a concern of overpenetration that by using HP's or the like would be a better option than FMJ ball load.
Every test I've seen of that "extremeshock" garbage ammo shows that it is a poor preformer.

Here is the .40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o2owhC_Cgc

Just stick to traditional HP's

I use Gold Dots and Winchester Ranger's
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Old September 11, 2012, 06:37 PM   #28
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I have the best answer to this question

First, I only use a 9mm pistol for CCW and Home defense. In that pistol I use Speer gold dot 124 gr +p ammo that has been dipped in a little pig grease then rolled in silver dust and last of all sprayed lightly with raw sewage. I guess you want to know why? Simple the pig grease is in case the attacker has some wild belief that and hog product will make them unclean and they would not get to heaven if defiled by a little pork. The silver in case of werewolfs. Now comes the raw sewage, that I got in the mix in case they live through our meeting, so infection will set in and the rest of their life will be spent in great pain. Last, are the Speer gold dots that is due to the great testing results and the large hollow point that gives the room I need for my toxic mix
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Old September 11, 2012, 07:02 PM   #29
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Got to go with Spats' earlier comment:

Quote:
There are a variety of different bullet designs within what I think of as the "acceptable window of performance." Of those, I try to stick with those that perform best in my carry pistol.
I test 'em. Carry the ones that produced close-together-holes-closest-to-point-of-aim. And that may (often does) vary with different pistols.
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Old September 12, 2012, 12:45 PM   #30
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I generally don't use handloads, I don't use ball or FMJ. Other than that I wouldn't sweat having the perfect ammo for SD. Reliable, acceptable bullet design, good weight for the job at hand, all equals good to go. Personally, I'd hate to live on the difference in effectiveness between "designer" SD ammo and good ol' standard HP/SP's. If I'm buying factory ammo I'm looking for stuff that comes in 50 rounds boxes not the minuscule 20 round boxes that cost about the same. Is the "designer" ammo more effective? Maybe, heck even probably. But you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that you were unarmed having a round like the less expensive 125gr SP Remingtons shoved in your .357. Same for comparable rounds in .38sp, 9mm, .45 acp, etc. Like I said, I'd hate to try to live on the difference.
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Old September 12, 2012, 02:19 PM   #31
medic15al
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My carry/defense ammo:

.45 ACP- 230grn HST or Ranger-T
357sig- 125 grn Cor-Bon or Ranger-T
9mm 9BPLE or Ranger-T 127 +P+
.38 Spl. Buffalo Bore 158 LSWCHP +P
.45 Colt- 225 grn Silvertip HP
5.56 M-193 55grn Lake City

I have carried all these in LE or a security job at one time or another
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Old September 12, 2012, 02:31 PM   #32
zincwarrior
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Carry: currently Remington golden sabre .45 ACP and 9mm (wife)
Home: Remington 00 shotgun shells and Winchester 110 roundnose M1 carbine rounds (oh and home loaded .44 mag in case bears or aliens attack the suburbs).

No worries about a jury are not concerning in the least.
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Old September 12, 2012, 02:34 PM   #33
aarondhgraham
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How would they know?,,,

Quote:
How would they know if the round I used was a reload?
They will ask you under oath in deposition,,,
Perjury is also a felony so you wouldn't want to lie about it.

Depending on how aggressive the prosecutor or the plaintiff's attorney is,,,
They will have your weapon (and probably ammunition) inspected,,,
That pretty blonde in CSI Miami would know in seconds.

Aarond

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Old September 12, 2012, 09:23 PM   #34
Marquezj16
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Good point aaron.

I think if your load was developed to perform as the manufactured ammo (published load, chronographed and tested side by side on gel medium) your lawyer could argue that your ammo is no more deadlier than the manufacturer ammo. And what if you load it for lower than manufactured load?
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Old September 12, 2012, 09:28 PM   #35
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How do you prove that those rounds used were loaded to one spec or another? What you do and what can be called into question because you can or cannot prove it are two separate things.
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Old September 12, 2012, 09:56 PM   #36
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I like to use Winchester PDX1 in my guns.
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Old September 12, 2012, 10:10 PM   #37
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This is my EDC ammo, I always carry the same type day or night. Plus a 100 pound white German Shepherd for home defense
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Old September 12, 2012, 10:14 PM   #38
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I'll let the Prosecution try my ammo after they figure out what it is as I am only talking to my attorney after any shooting I am involved in. Go find out what I shot with as you have my gun and ammo used. After the arrest I will go to the trunk of my car and get the twin of what was used and holster it CCW and go home. The ammo will likely be Cor-Bon DPX in 9MM or Winchester Ranger T 127GR +P+. I will always carry what I believe works to shoot the BG to the ground in the fastest manner. Yes I may spend a night in the jail before getting out, but that is the least of my worries. And yes, I have an attorney on retainer.
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Old September 12, 2012, 10:27 PM   #39
Marquezj16
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How do you prove that those rounds used were loaded to one spec or another? What you do and what can be called into question because you can or cannot prove it are two separate things.
Elementary my dear.

I load in batches of about 200-300 rounds. A sample can be taken from the rest of the reloads and tested at a balistics lab and compared to the standard manufacturer load.

A few bullet can be pulled to see the amount of gun powder. A few can be shot into a gel block. Compare.

It would cost money but hey it would be my defense.
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Old September 12, 2012, 10:30 PM   #40
Marquezj16
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This is my EDC ammo, I always carry the same type day or night.
What ammo brand is that?
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Old September 12, 2012, 10:31 PM   #41
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Federal HST (40 and 9mm), Winchester Ranger T (.45), or Buffalo Bore (SWCHP - .38s, JHP - .380), Hornady XTP (.25)

Not concerned about a jury's opinion of my choice of ammo. If it's a criminal trial, I won't be explaining anything to a jury. Defendants don't normally testify.

If it's a civil trial, I wouldn't have much to say there either. I'm not an expert on ballistics. Lawyer's job to defuse that argument, not mine.
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Old September 13, 2012, 03:51 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigcurious
How do you prove that those rounds used were loaded to one spec or another?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquezj16
Elementary my dear.

I load in batches of about 200-300 rounds. A sample can be taken from the rest of the reloads and tested at a balistics lab and compared to the standard manufacturer load.
That presumes that evidence as to your loading will be admitted at all. Down in L&CR, I put together an "Archive on Self-Defense and Reloads" (or some other, similar name). I think it's worth a look if you're interested in the legal aspect. Part of the problem is that you may find that all evidence of your reloading practices is inadmissible. That's one of the major reasons for sticking with factory ammo. In the case of factory loads, there's a neutral third party who can testify as to the bullet, the loading, the performance . . . all without the shooter having to get on the stand.
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Old September 13, 2012, 04:02 PM   #43
sigcurious
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^This. Also, assuming for a moment it is accepted into evidence, the reloading data from other rounds proves is that you loaded some rounds to certain specs, not that the rounds used were loaded to the same specs
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Old September 13, 2012, 04:37 PM   #44
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No one will ever win the factory or reload argument. I suppose the best practice would be to reload as close as possible to the uber-factory load that you carry and practice with the reload. A good shoot is a good shoot. The guy in Phoenix got dinged for using a 10mm, more "powerful" than the local police. So if we are to use the "logic" of the experts, no one should ever use a 10mm for self-protection. Silly. But we know for a fact, that no one, has ever been convicted of a crime, for attempted self-defense for using reloads. Never, ever. I use reloads for everything. I load my wife's gun with factory ammunition as she should not suffer for a mistake I make. Another argument parroted is that you have to hire an expert but if you needed an expert at all, you would need the expert regardless if the ammunition was factory or reload. In virtually (except the 10mm case, one case in history of the United States) every case of self-defense, the ammunition is not the issue, the issue is the justified use of deadly force. In the end a good shoot is a good shoot. We have had a number of self-defense videos posted here and elsewhere over the years, and the ammunition was never mentioned and is never an issue. The only issue is the justified use of deadly force. Let's not get the vapors over a non-issue that has never happened, never, ever.
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Old September 13, 2012, 04:37 PM   #45
Marquezj16
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Quote:
Part of the problem is that you may find that all evidence of your reloading practices is inadmissible.
On what grounds would this evidence be inadmissible?


Quote:
Also, assuming for a moment it is accepted into evidence, the reloading data from other rounds proves is that you loaded some rounds to certain specs, not that the rounds used were loaded to the same specs
I'm not a lawyer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night but I would think a good lawyer representing you could/would be able to present your load data, specially if it was tested by an independent lab.

This brings up another topic in my mind. If you can get prosecuted for "reloads" that may or may not be hotter than factory ammo, what's to stop a prosecutor from prosecuting you if you carry the latest ammo that penetrates barriers and ensures full expansion, painting you as a blood thirsty gun fanatic. Same thing if you used a .40 or .45 over a 9mm. Prosecutor could state you are going over the top with using calibers meant to kill. think about it.

If you are worried about getting prosecuted for the type of ammo you use on your carry/home defense gun, then I think you need to think of less lethal alternatives.

Last edited by Marquezj16; September 13, 2012 at 08:57 PM.
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Old September 13, 2012, 04:45 PM   #46
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I am a lawyer, and the issue of admissible evidence is up to the trial judge. There is a case where the judge wrongly, in my opinion, would not allow evidence relating to the reloaded ammunition because the evidence was not reliable. But, it was not a self-defense case. A good shoot is a good shoot. We all have to decide for ourselves, but I'm not going to decide based on something that has never, ever happened in the history of the United States. "Justified" self-defense is just that. I have a baseball bat expert ready to testify if I whack an intruder with my "home-made" bat.
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Old September 13, 2012, 05:07 PM   #47
Marquezj16
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jmortimer - thanks for the information. I totally agree wit your comment.

Quote:
A good shoot is a good shoot.
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Old September 13, 2012, 07:53 PM   #48
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Somewhere in my archive (& I'm trying to dig up the post), I did a short analysis based on the federal rules of evidence. In short, it has to do with the principles underlying the admissibility of technical or expert evidence, and the fact that the shooter/defendant is trying to get in evidence that he created himself.

jrmortimer is right in that the question of admissibility is up to the trial judge. However, the rules of evidence remain the same, regardless of whether the case is self-defense, suicide, negligence, or improperly mowed grass. The fact that the Daniel Bias case (where reloads were an issue) is not an SD case is wholly irrelevant.

Nobody has ever been convicted "for using handloads" because "using handloads" isn't a crime. However, having handloads become an issue is a separate issue. It can significantly complicate a shooter's defense (criminal, civil or both), even if it does not lead to a conviction (or loss at the civil trial).

A good shoot is only a good shoot after someone other than the shooter (i.e. police, prosecutor, judge or jury) has made that determination.

Edited to add: Found my post: http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...&postcount=118
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:14 PM   #49
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"The fact that the Daniel Bias case (where reloads were an issue) is not an SD case is wholly irrelevant."
Well, no, it is relevant. In Bias, a convicted killer, tried to say his wife killed herself. Assuming we were to believe him, or not, then the take away is that no one should reload, or put reloads in their firearms. Even an accidental shooting (this is what the prosecution argued - that it was an accidental and reckless killing)and you are toast using this "logic." Are we really going to quit reloading and assuming the answer is no, then would we dare to insert the reload into a firearm, because just doing that will cause you huge problems in court no matter what if someone gets shot. Accidents happen, and that is what the Bias case is all about in the end, and reloads are bad in every circumstance because accidents happen. You see how silly all this is. Use some common sense. So, no one use reloads under any circumstances and no one use a 10mm just because you never know what might happen.
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Old September 13, 2012, 08:59 PM   #50
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10mm and .41 Magnum = 175 gr Silvertip.
.45 ACP = 230 gr Golden Saber.
.44 Special = 200 gr GDHP.
.32 ACP = 73 gr Fiocchi FMJ.
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