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Old March 26, 2012, 10:18 PM   #1
cajun47
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rotating hollow points and fmj in your ccw's mag?

why or why not? if you do have some fmj in the mix, what brand? round nose? flat nose?

i carry a glock 19 and the first 6 rounds are gold dot hp, then a few fmj, then hp, fmj, ect. i have my doubts how well a hp can penetrate lots of thick muscle tissue if im fighting for my life against a pumped up criminal.
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Old March 26, 2012, 10:43 PM   #2
Jason_G
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Just find some quality JHP and stick with that.

Mixing ammo in a mag is an open invitation for feeding issues IMHO.


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Old March 26, 2012, 11:10 PM   #3
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Jason...I'd go with a good quality JHP in the +P power level, if you're toting a gun that's up to it and feeds it 100%. As near as I can see, the FMJ's are good practice rounds and usually feed 100%, but just aren't a good choice for SD. A good indicator of that would be any one of the Federal police agencies: FBI, Secret Service, Border Patrol etc. All of them carry JHP's. Rod
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Old March 26, 2012, 11:24 PM   #4
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Sometimes I load my spare mag up with fmj but I don't mix them in the same mag. It's nice to have fmj's handy when I am walking around with my dog. That way if he finds a groundhog or coon I don't have to waste my carry ammo on it.

I think any modern hollowpoint will work just fine on 2 legged threats with the right shot placement.

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Old March 27, 2012, 12:20 AM   #5
arentol
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I carry a mix of JHP and Flatnose FMJ or Flatnose Hardcast.

The FMJ is either in the bottom half of both my magazines, or taking up the entire second magazine with the JHP taking up the entire first magazine.

The reason I carry FNFMJ/FNHC is because I figure that the vast majority of encounters will be over within the first 5 rounds, however if it goes longer there is either a good chance the attacker will be under cover now (and still armed/shooting), or the JHP is clearly not getting the job done for some reason. Either way, I will likely want something with greater penetration at that point.
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Old March 27, 2012, 12:32 AM   #6
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Mixing FMJ and JHP ammo is most commonly seen in .380 pistols. Many people have concerns about .380 JHP and penetration, so they alternate FMJ and JHP ammo.

When I carry my .380, I load BuffaloBore's 100 gr hardcast load. Ample penetration and some expansion. Nice compromise.

If carrying something that is 9mm or bigger, I see no reason to alternate.
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Old March 27, 2012, 04:46 AM   #7
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I am not law enforcement and have never had to shot anyone (thank God) so the following is purely my logic, right or wrong. I load the 1st 3 shots in my CCW mag with JHPs then the balance with FMJs. My logic is that if the 1st 3 JHPs does not stop the attacker for whatever reason the ammo is not working (or I'm a horrible shot) and then comes the switch to FMJs.
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Old March 27, 2012, 05:01 AM   #8
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I carry a .380 loaded with cor-bon power balls. Supposedly the best of both worlds, or not, depending on who you listen to.
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Old March 27, 2012, 05:23 AM   #9
AndyWest
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I usually load only quality (say, Cor-Bon) JHP in a CCW figuring it's for flight, not fight. Point being, score a center-mass hit or two if necessary and bug out. That's me, but I can see a LEO or other reasons for mixing. Although:

Quote:
Mixing ammo in a mag is an open invitation for feeding issues IMHO.
... I don't think the gun remembers what the last round was when reloading...
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Old March 27, 2012, 06:05 AM   #10
BikeNGun1974
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Your concern is that you don't think that the type of round with the most proven history of stopping attackers is not enough, and after 6 rounds you want something more. Perhaps you missed a lot; perhaps your attacker is not stopping after 6 solid hits. Your solution is to now use rounds with a less proven history of stopping attackers and a higher likelihood of over-penetration and hitting someone else nearby.

If the first 6 shots did not work, switching to an ammo with less stopping power is about the worst solution I can imagine.

Short of going to a larger caliber, going with a high quality defense ammo (usually JHP), will be your best bet.
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Old March 27, 2012, 06:23 AM   #11
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lol "stopping power"
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Old March 27, 2012, 06:31 AM   #12
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Most people who recommend mixing ammo say they may need better penetration or something like that... The odds of needing 'better penetration' than a quality bonded JHP as a civilian are very slim to none. The odds of using FMJ and that bullet hitting someone/something you didn't intend it to are much higher IMO. So, I say stick with the JHPs.
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Old March 27, 2012, 06:39 AM   #13
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I carry a snubby 38 when I deer
hunt, so I don't have to shoot
a downed deer with a rifle.
A few yrs ago I loaded up
with these ashtray type
hollow points.(Law man or something).
I shot a deer and broke it's spine
with a 50cal BP and tried to finish
him off with the snubbie.
Long story shot, when I skinned
him the hollow point made it thru
the hide at the base of it's neck
and only bruised the muscle.

I now carry SWC's.
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Old March 27, 2012, 07:39 AM   #14
Sparks1957
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Quote:
The odds of needing 'better penetration' than a quality bonded JHP as a civilian are very slim to none.
I'll second that: I don't need the risk of misfeeds added to the mix.
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Old March 27, 2012, 09:00 AM   #15
greyeyezz
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Quote:
Most people who recommend mixing ammo say they may need better penetration or something like that... The odds of needing 'better penetration' than a quality bonded JHP as a civilian are very slim to none. The odds of using FMJ and that bullet hitting someone/something you didn't intend it to are much higher IMO. So, I say stick with the JHPs.
Post nailed it, unless your using something below .380.
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Old March 27, 2012, 09:43 AM   #16
Jason_G
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Quote:
... I don't think the gun remembers what the last round was when reloading...
You need to remember that if the mag has more than one round in it, the round underneath the round being fed is acting as the follower. Having two different bullet contours next to each other in a magazine could cause a hang-up.

Seems like the risk is bigger than the reward to me.

YMMV. I'll stick with the Winchester Rangers.

Jason
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Old March 27, 2012, 09:58 AM   #17
doofus47
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I load JHP in my urban ccw.
I alternate flat nose FMJ and jhp in my backwoods magazines.
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Old March 27, 2012, 12:27 PM   #18
insaneranger
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I don't understand why someone would feel the need to stagger different styles of rounds in the same mag unless you don't trust that the first round can do the job. If you don't have faith in your ammo, you're probably using the wrong kind to begin with. Like others have said, choose a high quality round designed for your need and stick with it.
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Old March 27, 2012, 01:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
You need to remember that if the mag has more than one round in it, the round underneath the round being fed is acting as the follower. Having two different bullet contours next to each other in a magazine could cause a hang-up.

Seems like the risk is bigger than the reward to me.
Nothing like old wive's tails for logic. Having "two different contours" together isn't going to do anything different, assuming both function in the gun. The round being pushed into the chamber by the round below it has not idea what that round is or if it is the follower.

One thing that I do know for certain is that none of my followers have the same contour of the round I am shooting and neither the round or the follower is confused by this.

In my handguns, the part of the round that has the different contour does not contact the round preceding it or following it. So the contour issue is a non-issue.
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Old March 27, 2012, 01:06 PM   #20
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JHP... IMHO never FMJ for CCW unless its 380 or under.. or your going for large and dangerous game and even then you might want to do some careful round selection before going with plain FMJ without some sort of expansion...

Elephants, Polar Bears and the like exempted
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Old March 27, 2012, 05:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Nothing like old wive's tails for logic. Having "two different contours" together isn't going to do anything different, assuming both function in the gun. The round being pushed into the chamber by the round below it has not idea what that round is or if it is the follower.

One thing that I do know for certain is that none of my followers have the same contour of the round I am shooting and neither the round or the follower is confused by this.

In my handguns, the part of the round that has the different contour does not contact the round preceding it or following it. So the contour issue is a non-issue.
Maybe it is an old wives' tale, but I've had more than a few shooters, with far more years behind the trigger than I, say that it can happen. I've never had it happen personally, but I don't tend to stagger ammo in a handgun anyway, and my reasoning is that if JHPs will work, why tempt Murphy? IIRC, a "Dutch load" used to be a reliability test done by some reviewers in gun rags. Perpetuation of the myth? Writers just trying to find something to write about? I don't know.

I do know that not all handguns have the same type of feed.
There's a reason that a lot of 1911 followers have that raised dimple on them to simulate a round beneath the last round.

I also know that some loads have different OAL and ogive shapes. I could see it as being possible, however unlikely you may deem it, a longer OAL round being stripped off of a shorter OAL round wanting to "tip" too soon before it enters the extractor claw, or chamber, or whatever the case may be, depending on the weapon.

Unless you've done the testing, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as an old wives' tale. If you have done the testing, or can cite such testing, post it up so that we can put another handgun myth to bed.


Jason
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Old March 27, 2012, 05:09 PM   #22
KyJim
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Years ago I read a post or story from a shooter who claimed he had shot a large number of mixed rounds (FMJ and HPs) in the same mag and there was a slightly larger incidence of failure with the mixed rounds than HPs by themselves or FMJs by themselves in the same mags.

This didn't make a lot of sense to me until I got past the physics of the situation. I speculate that when a shooter encounters a round with a different feel as it is feeding or a different amount of recoil, the shooter adjusts his hold just a little, maybe "limp wristing" just a bit. In turn, this causes a small increase in the frequency of FTF/FTRB. All this is pure speculation.

BTW, I don't mix types in my mags because I choose what I think this is the best round.
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Old March 27, 2012, 05:20 PM   #23
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Quote:
Maybe it is an old wives' tale, but I've had more than a few shooters, with far more years behind the trigger than I, say that it can happen. I've never had it happen personally, but I don't tend to stagger ammo in a handgun anyway, and my reasoning is that if JHPs will work, why tempt Murphy? IIRC, a "Dutch load" used to be a reliability test done by some reviewers in gun rags. Perpetuation of the myth? I don't know.
So a story told to you by others about an event that has never happened to you, that you pass off as being factual. That is actually full blown mythology.

It has been my experience that there is a lot of religion in the beliefs of how handguns work and shooters will tell you point blank and incorrectly about various issues. I especially am impressed with all the people with guns that have never malfunctioned. When you get to talk with them more, you learn that they have had parts break such that the gun wasn't operable, bad springs, bad ammo, bad magazines that have caused their guns to not fire, but the gun has never malfunctioned.

What I see is a fairly significant disparity between what folks say is going on with their guns and what is actually going on with their guns. Without better explanation than "bullet contour" causing problems, I don't see where the different ammo issue has any weight.

BTW, the way I learned wasn't that it was bullet contour. That would be silly. What I learned was that the malfunctions were caused by the different burn rates or loads of powder between ball ammo and hollowpoint ammo that caused problems. Apparently shooting different loads causes some sort of confusion on the part of the gun to cycle the ammo.

Of course there were detractors who though the different loads issue was bogus, noting that the malfunctions were user induced as a result of different amounts of recoil between hollowpoint defensive ammo and ball ammo, that it was the user, not the gun, that was at fault.
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Old March 27, 2012, 05:21 PM   #24
Super Sneaky Steve
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Quote:
I carry a snubby 38 when I deer
hunt, so I don't have to shoot
a downed deer with a rifle.
A few yrs ago I loaded up
with these ashtray type
hollow points.(Law man or something).
I shot a deer and broke it's spine
with a 50cal BP and tried to finish
him off with the snubbie.
Long story shot, when I skinned
him the hollow point made it thru
the hide at the base of it's neck
and only bruised the muscle.

I now carry SWC's.
+1 a LSWC is the way to go. That way you can shoot through a wood door, a car door, or a couch. You don't have to worry about it opening too soon or not penetrating deep enough.
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Old March 27, 2012, 09:26 PM   #25
Jason_G
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Quote:
So a story told to you by others about an event that has never happened to you, that you pass off as being factual. That is actually full blown mythology.
Well, before you go getting your droors in a wad, and going all "mythological," note the bold in my previous posts:

Quote:
Mixing ammo in a mag is an open invitation for feeding issues IMHO.
Quote:
You need to remember that if the mag has more than one round in it, the round underneath the round being fed is acting as the follower. Having two different bullet contours next to each other in a magazine could cause a hang-up.

Seems like the risk is bigger than the reward to me.

YMMV.
I'll stick with the Winchester Rangers.

Jason
Not once did I say that it is a fact that you will have malfunctions if you mix ammo. I simply stated that it was my opinion that it is an open invitation to a risk that needn't be taken, again, in my opinion. If you disagree, so be it.

I could flip the coin around criticize you for so boldly stating your opinion without proof, or anything other than anecdotal evidence, but this is beyond silly.

Carry what you want to. Load what you want to. I'll sleep tonight regardless.

Best,
Jason
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