The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 11, 2012, 10:34 AM   #26
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,232
It's a shame the US military is STILL wasting our tax dollars, buying those worthless shotguns.

/snark
__________________
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 10:43 PM   #27
Doc TH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Posts: 484
Shotgun

I believe the shotgun may be more useful than some of the posters believe. The excerpt is from an article in The Army Lawyer (non-copyrighted US Govt publication):

OCTOBER 1997 THE ARMY LAWYER • DA-PAM 27-50-299
Joint Service Combat Shotgun Program
W. Hays Parks
Special Assistant for Law of War Matters,
Office of The Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army
Washington, D.C.

This objective has been borne out in combat. British examination of
its Malaya experience determined that, to a range of thirty yards
(27.4 meters), the probability of hitting a man-sized target with
a shotgun was superior to that of all other weapons. The probability
of hitting the intended target with an assault rifle was
one in eleven. It was one in eight with a submachine gun firing
a five-round burst. Shotguns had a hit probability ratio twice as
good as rifles. A 1952 British study by the Commander of British
Security Forces, compiled from combat action reports, tests,
and other studies (including medical), reconfirmed the previous
finding that the shotgun was a highly-effective combat weapon
at ranges out to seventy-five yards (68.6 meters).13
Doc TH is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 10:54 PM   #28
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 2,967
IIRC there are some legal objections-is there any FMJ shotgun ammo that would comply with Geneva Convention requirements ? Only place I saw shotguns in the Army was in the National Guard, and they were strictly for civil disturbance use. Also I recall some attempts to provide 20 gage shotguns for village defense in Vietnam, the idea being a low recoil point and shoot weapon that required minimal training.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old September 11, 2012, 11:02 PM   #29
TheSILENTtype
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2012
Posts: 139
The CSG or any SG for that matter, has and will outlast us all.

Weather it is being taken to Bambis house, tracking a bear, in a home defense situation or even in a CZ ; the SG will seemingly always have a place in each field.

It has certainly not met its expiry and without question the 590 and 870 the ithica amidst many others are still being used common place.
__________________
THE SILENT TYPE
TheSILENTtype is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 01:53 AM   #30
Chuckusaret
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 708
[/QUOTE]The CSG or any SG for that matter, has and will outlastus all.

Weather it is being taken to Bambis house, tracking a bear, in a home defense situation or even in a CZ ; the SG will seemingly always have a place in each field.

It has certainly not met its expiry and without question the 590 and 870 the ithica amidst many others are still being used common place.[/QUOTE]

I was never assigned to a unit that did not have shotguns in the arms room, but I was always assigned to a combat unit and never assigned to a REU. I thank the man upstairs, I was never a REMF.
Chuckusaret is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 02:22 AM   #31
jokester_143
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2010
Location: Montana
Posts: 135
On a few patrols, while deployed in 08/09, I had a Mossberg 500. One of the ones I carried was a short barreled one, and another was a "full size" one, and it depended on if the assigned person came out on patrol or if someone was covering down on their weapon system.

Due to the current R.O.E. (Rules of Engagement) at the time, and the "transition of authority" we were required to have the capability to use less lethal rounds in some situations. Being as such, we were required to have "X" amount of weapon systems capable of deploying less lethal munitions, which were shotguns and M203 grenade launchers Our shotguns still had shot in the tubes, but the first round was less lethal.

Shotguns are one of the most versatile weapon systems around, and when used in the proper matter, most effective. What other weapon system (portable) can fire buck, slug, less lethal, exploding, ect?

(BTW: The couple of times I carried it, I also had my M4 slung in case of further engagements)
__________________
M&P 15, XD:M .40cal, Mossberg 500 with Knox tactical stock and now also a XD:M 3.8 in .40cal...
jokester_143 is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 08:05 AM   #32
JN01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 468
Quote:
As a defensive weapon it has long been obsolete. Compared to a carbine AR you are looking at a heavier, more awkward gun with limited range and ammo capacity. You are also looking at almost 30 ft lbs of recoil vs 4-5 ft lbs for an AR.
Perhaps with conventional shotguns, but there is the AA12- full auto, reduced recoil, 20 or 32 round magazines. Empty weight probably isn't that much more than an AR with the extra crap bolted onto it (32 rounds of 12 gauge is a bit hefty though). For certain urban warfare applications, I would think something like that could be quite useful.
JN01 is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 08:41 AM   #33
10mmAuto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 598
As a soldier, I'd rather have an M4. It's a no brainer. Marginally less effective within 30 yards and better at every distance beyond that. One guy to breach the door carrying a cruiser as his secondary is fine, but the idea of carrying one big enough to be a practical primary like an AA-12 is stupid for mainline combatants. You've got more important stuff to carry than a situational weapon.
10mmAuto is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 08:57 AM   #34
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,086
It might seem stupid in Iraq or Afghanistan, but it wasn't stupid in the Viet Nam. I guess it would seem stupid to somebody who hasn't seen engagement at pistol range, with troops that want to lay down to shoot, because that's how they trained! Shotguns are useful to the "taking care of business" guys to get the level of fire up to suppression levels, while the rest of the squad is finding a nice place to lay down to shoot. Wish we had M1Super 90's back then. Mostly M37, some shot loads for the M79. I like the thumper, but with shot it wasn't much for range.
Strafer Gott is online now  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:00 AM   #35
10mmAuto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2010
Posts: 598
Quote:
It might seem stupid in Iraq or Afghanistan, but it wasn't stupid in the Viet Nam.
I believe you and respect your service in Vietnam, but I was talking about the contemporary operating environment (notice I mention the M4).
10mmAuto is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:13 AM   #36
Single Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Location: N.C.
Posts: 1,522
No combat vet here, just 23 years [and counting] of full-time LE. Naturally, I'm issued a rifle, but also a shotgun. The M4 is fine, but my problem is that the rifle is in my patrol car's trunk, while the blunderbuss is in the car with me, and thus more quickly accessed. If there's time, I'll take the Colt, but sometimes, there isn't time [my last armed encounter was a prime example]. There have been several occasions in my career where just the sound of me racking that first round into the chamber of the 870 was enough to end all hostilities. That suits me just fine; if I can do anything to solve a problem without actually pulling a trigger, wonderful. Of course, I know better than to depend on that happening every time, and I don't. Still, it's almost a given fact: When that unmistakable sound is heard, everyone in the vicinity knows that things just got SERIOUS.
__________________
Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."
Single Six is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 09:32 AM   #37
Chuckusaret
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 708
Quote:
10mmAuto
Senior Member
I believe you and respect your service in Vietnam, but I was talking about the contemporary operating environment (notice I mention the M4).
What is a contemporary operating environment? I spent 24 years in the Army , of which about five years in combatunits in RVN, and never once heard that term used.
Chuckusaret is offline  
Old September 12, 2012, 10:25 AM   #38
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,271
I've kept this thread open for a while to see if it might morph into something more appropriate for T&T here -- but that never happened.

Our primary focus is personal self defense. If there are lessons to be learned from military applications that would be helpful to one interested in personal defense, fine. But nothing along those lines appears to be developing here.
__________________
Formerly known as fiddletown
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08870 seconds with 7 queries