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Old September 11, 2012, 07:43 PM   #1
Erikbal
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A few scenario questions, I could use some advice!

Ok so there's a few different scenarios I have had on my mind lately and I wanted some advice. Please take your time to read, sorry for the long post!

First off is this one....I had to move back into my parents house a while back due to certain circumstances. While I was gone, my room started to become kind of a catch all for things that don't have a place. So until my room is cleaned up and back to normal, I've been sleeping on the couch. The way our front door is set up is like this...when you walk in the front door from the porch you enter a hallway, where we hang coats and keep our shoes and such. Right to your left is another door that opens into the living room and when you enter the room you are facing straight at the couch. My question is this, if an intruder were to enter the living room and appeared to be unarmed, how should I react? I always sleep with my gun in my pants pocket right on the floor next to the couch within close reach. Should I pull the gun on them and hold them there until the police arrive? Also, what would be the best thing to do if they WERE armed? Would I be in the right to draw on them and shoot right there on the spot?

Ok my next question. If I was in the local gas station or grocery store or what have you and someone came in and drew a weapon on the employee(s), what would be the best thing for me to do? I always have a pistol on me anywhere that I can legally carry it. Should I just stand there and do nothing, or should I try to defend them somehow?

Alright one more thing I was thinking about. What if I was outside somewhere, say pumping gas for example, and I saw across the parking lot that a bad guy had a gun drawn on a person, or two or three people or whatever, and was robbing them and I felt that their lives were in danger. What would be the best way to react? What about if I didn't think their lives were in danger? Also what about the same situation, except it was a domestic violence situation and the husband or boyfriend had his gun drawn and was pointing it at his wife and clearly stated that he was going to kill her?

I'm sorry I realize that there are multiple variables here that can come into play. I have just thought about these scenarios quite a bit lately because they seem like some of the more likely things that could happen, and I want to make sure I react correctly and in a manner that will keep myself out of trouble and out of jail. Maybe some LEOS on here could join in, or anyone who has been in any of these situations. Thanks a lot for your time!

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Old September 11, 2012, 07:58 PM   #2
kraigwy
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ONE: He's un armed, why would you shoot him?

TWO: Gas stations don't carry enough money to justify taking someone's life. I'd let the guy rob the place, eyeball the situation and make yourself a good witness.

Three: You don't know what's going on across the street, it could be a cloths cop. Charging across the street is could really turn things to crap in a hurry.

Leave the gun in your pocket and dig out your cell phone.

In all cases it didn't seem like anyone's life was threatened, robbed, but that's it.


My question is, you live in NY. I thought it was very difficult to get a CC permit in NY>
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Old September 12, 2012, 12:09 AM   #3
jmhyer
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First scenario - if the intruder is clearly unarmed and poses no immediate threat to life or limb, then, in my state, I feels free to draw and hold him at gunpoint if needed until police arrive. If he turns and runs, I let him leave. After seeing then business end of my weapon, I doubt he's ever coming back to my house. Call the cops anyway, provide a description, and file a report. If he's armed, then he gets fired upon before he gets a chance to fire at me.

In the other two scenarios, I'm finding cover with gun ready to be drawn if needed, calling the cops, and being a good witness. There are just too many repercussions for jumping in to help a stanger that isn't obviously about to be seriously injured or killed.
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Old September 12, 2012, 01:30 AM   #4
BfloBill
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I agree with the advice already given. In the store and street scenarios be ready and be a good witness.

kraigwy-Generally it is harder to get in NY than most states, but the judges in some counties are quicker to grant them than others. I live in Erie county and know alot of people who waited over a year, then were denied a carry permit and granted one for "target and hunting only". I have friends in Cattaraugus county (where the OP is located) who only waited 2-3 months, and every permit granted was for carry. Catt. county is more rural, that may contribute to the gun friendly attitude.
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Old September 12, 2012, 02:53 AM   #5
Glenn Dee
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Listen to Kraigway
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Old September 12, 2012, 08:54 AM   #6
Dwight55
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Erikbal, . . . concealed carry or even owning a SD weapon is simply for that and that alone: Self Defense.

Your scenarios/situations don't offer any credible threats to YOUR safety or YOUR health. Therefore, . . . you better keep those bullets in the gun.

You are not authorized nor responsible to challenge every questionable event with a firearm and/or deadly force.

ONLY, when you have a threat to YOUR life, YOUR safety or someone else in a situation that you KNOW all the facts about, . . . are you authorized to use deadly force.

Other than that scenario alone, . . . leave it alone.

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Old September 12, 2012, 09:01 AM   #7
darkroommike
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1. Call 911
2. Call 911
3. Call 911

#1, you are a guest in your folks house, wake up and see an "intruder"--maybe it's you're Dad coming downstairs to pee at night, old guys do that, (don't ask me how I know!). Pull a gun on Dad and you're living in your car. Locked doors in this case are better protection than a firearm.

#2, you are most likely going to escalate the situation by drawing on this goof, let him leave and call the police, only draw if your LIFE is in danger.

#3, police (in most jurisdictions) have been trained to calm such situations and also have backup and non-lethal methods to restrain such folks.
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Old September 12, 2012, 12:18 PM   #8
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I absolutely agree with Dwight and Mike, and constantly remind myself of the same: my carrying a self defense weapon is for SELF DEFENSE. It does not allow me to impose what I perceive as justice on a situation which I am more than likely VERY unwise to. Call the appropriate authorities

Having said that, if I see a psycho with a knife/gun shooting/stabbing seemingly at will, you bet it's two in the chest and one in the head, no questions asked. I consider that self defense, as I am then in immediate physical danger, to say nothing of those around me.

You've got a good premise here though- the line between where deadly force is authorized and where it is not is, when it comes to practical situations, perhaps not as well defined as it should be. This is likely due to the vast amount of variables which need to be accounted for. If somebody is already in the act of murder, deadly force is absolutely appropriate, but it's also too late. What could have been done to prevent that, and where is the line? I'm not going to shoot a common crook in a grocery store, but if he starts shooting, I'm firing back.
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Old September 12, 2012, 12:49 PM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
My question is, you live in NY. I thought it was very difficult to get a CC permit in NY
Popular and persistent misconception. Geographically, the vast majority of NY is legally "may issue" but effectively Shall Issue. The only areas where getting a permit is difficult are the major cities. Namely, Buffalo, Rochester, Albany and obviously NYC. There are pockets of resistance elsewhere, such as the Ithaca area but, by and large, getting a permit in the rest of the state is quite easy. I know of some counties that issue CC permits by default. Even if the applicant requests a sporting use or premises permit, the judge will change it to concealed carry. Technically, it's not concealed carry, it's "Unrestricted".

In regards to the scenarios, I agree, shooting someone who doesn't pose an imminent threat is bad joojoo and inserting yourself into unknown scenarios is a good way to get shot.
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Old September 12, 2012, 01:47 PM   #10
Erikbal
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Thanks guys, I really appreciate you taking your time and giving me your input. Yes I live is Catt county and it took me about 5 months or so to get my permit. Many of my friends also have permits as well.

As for my dad coming downstairs to pee lol, his bedroom is on the first floor in the back of the house, he is disabled. I am always the last one to sleep and know when everyone is home, so if someone were to come into the living room from the hallway I would know they weren't welcome. Also I am sure I'd hear them enter because our doors are always locked with the handle and a dead bolt. So if someone did enter the house and was clearly armed, I would be justified to shoot at them? Shoot to kill I would assume, because my life would be considered at risk? Also if they weren't armed then holding them at gunpoint until the police arrived wouldn't get me in any trouble correct?

Oh and I forgot, my one scenario was if a guy had a gun pointed at his wife or whomever and clearly was enraged and stated he was going to kill her. If something like that were to happen and someone was killed, I would feel awful if I thought there was a chance I could have stopped it in any way.

Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate your advice and input. I love this place! Also bflobill, it's nice to see a local around here! I'm only a little over an hour away from Buffalo.

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Last edited by Erikbal; September 12, 2012 at 01:54 PM.
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Old September 12, 2012, 03:09 PM   #11
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1 Take Cover/Concealment behind the nearest object providing such. Maintain a silent presence until you has assesed the intruders intent and / or physical capabilities and do a very quick threat assessment ; do they have a weapon visible? / are they constantly reaching behind their back to tuck something in, are they reaching oddly for something in a pocket or IWB type style etc.

2 Draw down upon intruder regardless of visible intent. Make your presence known, and that theirs is not. Instruct accordingly in a commanding and authoritive voice. Provide clear instruction, avoid screaming at them

3 in the event of any suspicious or not visible hands ( which shouldve been demanded in step 2 ) begin to prepare a disabling shot, that could very quickly be turned into a fatal shot. Such as should to chest adjustment.

4 allow them an opportunity to RUN and nothing else. any reaching into pockets, slow walking, walking backwards, or insivisble hands should be taken as a further threat as the target still appears confrontational. maintain and repeat steps 2 through 3 until situation is resolved or WCS turns worse.

5 proceed accordingly. ALWAYS 'walk your target out' while ADS in a logical location. maintain visual contact until they are well gone, or seemingly subdued ( laying on the floor with their hands interlocked behind their head is clearly not going to be a situation where preparing a fatal shot is logical )

6 yell to others inside for a 911 call, or do it yourself if you havnt already.
be sure to inform 911 of your description, and your current situation ; INC. the weapon you possess , your current position in regards to the neighbourhood etc. Thus providing the FOS the ability to be expecting you, and not precieving you as an additional threat.


--- the list i have provided is based upon a rapid personal assessment done according to the information you have provided in combination with basic tactical skills ; with a pinch of inexperience measure.
unfortunately, the only way true preparedness can be obtained is by training and practice. Words alone will never prepare you, skill wise or mentally for this situation.
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Old September 12, 2012, 03:19 PM   #12
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by Erikbal: Oh and I forgot, my one scenario was if a guy had a gun pointed at his wife or whomever and clearly was enraged and stated he was going to kill her. If something like that were to happen and someone was killed, I would feel awful if I thought there was a chance I could have stopped it in any way.
Too many assumptions:
  • That the person wih the gun is in fact a criminal making unawful threats
  • That the person who appears to be threatened would herself be entitled to use deadly force under the circumatances and did not act unlawfully to start with
  • That the apparent victim would testify afterward that she had in fact been in danger rather than saying that you threatened them....

The man with a gun could be a security guard, undercover detective, or armed citizen ordering a dangerous suspect or attacker to keep her hands away from a weapon.

The "victim" in a domestic violence situation is likely to end up testifying against you.

In any of those scenarios, your intervention would likely but you inextricably in a world of serious trouble.
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Old September 12, 2012, 03:46 PM   #13
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it is a big list of variables and unlikely what ifs... but hey, doesnt hurt to wonder.
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Old September 12, 2012, 03:59 PM   #14
doingMach1
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A couple of things that apply to Florida law....not sure about other states:

- use of lethal force in self-defense would include the life of another person. In the end you will have to prove that you or the other person were in fear for your/their life. That's a harder one to prove if it's someone else, since you don't know what they will say. There have been instances where someone has defended the would be killer after they were shot by a bystander.

- you cannot hold someone until the police arrive. A civilian does not have the power to detain someone for a crime. You can only defend your life, or another's life.....
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Old September 12, 2012, 05:11 PM   #15
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1 - Unarmed guy facing an armed one will do 1 of 3 things: be compliant and do what you tell him to, run off, or charge. If the latter, fire away - it's a good bet he means you harm. Either way, best to know what you're pointing at, even if it means pretending to be asleep for a few extra seconds to observe.

2 - Be a good witness unless you personally are in danger of being harmed - should the robber decide to eliminate witnesses, protect yourself and others.

3 - Phone, 911, detailed description. There is nothing you can do from afar aside from that. You (presumably) are not a cop, the man with the gun very well might be and might not take too kindly to an armed stranger running up on a bust that he had under control 30 seconds beforehand

Quote:
Oh and I forgot, my one scenario was if a guy had a gun pointed at his wife or whomever and clearly was enraged and stated he was going to kill her. If something like that were to happen and someone was killed, I would feel awful if I thought there was a chance I could have stopped it in any way.
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever get in the middle of a wife/husband fight, unless one of them is actually dead at the others' hands - even then, call 911. Been on the receiving end of many scratches from what appeared to be "damsels in distress" - trust me, the minute you go after their guy they will forget all about the threats to kill them and you will either be facing 2 opponents or 2 witnesses, not good either way.

A firearm is a last resort, not a overall problem solver - is it pax's sig that has a saying about giving a small boy a hammer? I don't mean that to be insulting, but every problem is not a nail
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Old September 12, 2012, 06:17 PM   #16
TexasJustice7
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I would never become involved in any domestic dispute, regardless of the state, its a recipe for getting you in big trouble. As for what to do when someone is breaking in on you, I thought I was going to have to shoot an intruder this past week. I live in Texas and you have to know your state law. This guy came at 3:00 am, in the morning beating on my door. You can't shoot him for knocking in Texas. But if he is breaking the door in and he enters you can. I picked up my 45, made no sound. I turned the tv down and the guy knocked on another door, then he returned and started beating on mine again. I asked him what he wanted, never unlocked the door.

Right after he left, I called the police, and he was arrested in the next building. Turned out he was wanted for armed robbery, a number of assault and battery, plus sexual assault. The Chief of Police told me the guy was going to jail for a very long time and was a very bad guy. I think had I opened the door he might have grabbed for my gun.

I have a very secure door, but it could be kicked down. Now I am spending the money this month to put in video surveilance. He was unarmed, but whoever opened a door was most likely going to be robbed according to the police. The good news is the officer that made the arrest is moving into the complex near me.

But in some states, you have a duty to retreat, and may not be protected by a Castle Doctrine. I recommend you read over the deadly force statutes in your state and know exactly where you stand.
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Old September 12, 2012, 07:29 PM   #17
Erikbal
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Wow Texasjustice, that's a crazy story and I'm glad you were able to get a violent criminal off the streets and chose not to open your door! I am sure having a gun to defend yourself if needed helped ease your mind though.

Thanks again guys, and Stressfire trust me I am NOT looking to go solving problems with a gun. Honestly I hope and pray every day that I NEVER have to shoot anyone or use my guns for more than recreation. I appreciate your input though. You guys always give me a different point of view and way of looking at things!

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Old September 12, 2012, 08:08 PM   #18
TexasJustice7
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Quote:
Wow Texasjustice, that's a crazy story and I'm glad you were able to get a violent criminal off the streets and chose not to open your door! I am sure having a gun to defend yourself if needed helped ease your mind though.

Thanks again guys, and Stressfire trust me I am NOT looking to go solving problems with a gun. Honestly I hope and pray every day that I NEVER have to shoot anyone or use my guns for more than recreation. I appreciate your input though. You guys always give me a different point of view and way of looking at things!
You better believe, I was relieved to have three guns within arms reach. And I know that I made the right decision by NOT Openeing the door. Lets suppose I had opened the door, and he had grabbed for them. Even having the right to defend myself, can you imagine a prosecutor asking "Why did you open the door to him?". So like the cliche says, the best way to win a gunfight is not to have one. I would have shot him only if he broke the door down. My adrenaline was going, and for several days I have not been able to sleep well since it happened. By not opening the door and exposing myself to a possible confrontation with even an unarmed intruder probably saved me a great deal of trouble. My peephole is not good enough so now I need to spend money on video surveilence, instead of another handgun.
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