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Old October 20, 2012, 12:22 PM   #76
Hal
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To compare penetration figures using a heavier bullet for one and a light bullet for another isn't exactly fair.

How does the .38sp LSWCHP 158 gr. +P for instance stack up to the .158 gr. .357?

I'd look it up - but - I have a bunch of tile I have to grout and I can't put that unpleasant task off any longer...
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Old October 20, 2012, 12:33 PM   #77
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Webleymkv: I second Hal's response and will also add....What would be the practical difference in these rounds in a BG at close range? Any of those would cause significant tissue damage to vital organs. But which rounds would allow you follow-up shots? And which rounds would you practice with more often to ensure you can hit your targets without flinching or dreading the next trigger pull?

Sound and fury isn't what stops the BG's....otherwise, we'd all carry .500S&W blanks. Accurate hits are what count....and more people are accurate with .38SPL snubs than with .357MAG snubs.....
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Old October 20, 2012, 01:55 PM   #78
Webleymkv
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Originally posted by Hal
Quote:
To compare penetration figures using a heavier bullet for one and a light bullet for another isn't exactly fair.

How does the .38sp LSWCHP 158 gr. +P for instance stack up to the .158 gr. .357?
The Federal 158gr +P NyClad penetrated 13.1" and expanded to .232 square inches (avg. diameter .544") so while it gives slightly more expansion (due to its much
more malleable construction no doubt) it still gives a bit less penetration. However, comparing that loading to the 158gr Gold Dot still isn't quite fair because their bullet constructions are quite different. The reason that I chose the comparisons that I did is because the Gold Dot and Black Talon loadings were the only ones Brassfetcher tested from a <3" barrel, because they had similar bullet construction to the .38 Loadings that I referenced (Winchester's SXT is a descendant of the Black Talon), and because both the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester SXT are considered "modern" bullets.

Now, if we include 3" barrels in our definition of "short barrel" then we've got a bit more data to draw from. From 3" barrels, we've got the following:

.357 Magnum
Cor-Bon 125gr JHP- 1303fps, 10.7" penetration, .260 sq in. expansion (avg. diameter .576")
Federal 130gr Hydra-Shok- 1276fps, 10.9" penetration, .397 sq. in. expansion (avg. diameter .711")
Federal 158gr Hydra-Shok- 1017fps, 16.0" penetration, .109 sq. in expansion (.373" avg. diameter)

Originally posted by seeker_two
Quote:
Webleymkv: I second Hal's response and will also add....What would be the practical difference in these rounds in a BG at close range? Any of those would cause significant tissue damage to vital organs.
Well, for one thing the 9.8" of penetration displayed by the Winchester SXT .38 Spl loading is low enough that I would not trust it for self-defense as it does not meet, or even come particularly close, to the 12" minimum reccomended by the FBI.

Secondly, even between the Speer Gold Dots which did penetrate adequately in both calibers, the extra penetration of the .357 Magnum version would be advantageous if one were concerned about unusually large individuals (I, in fact am and that is one of the primary reasons that I choose to carry guns cahmbered for powerful cartridges like .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, and .44 Magnum).

I'm not trying to say that a .38 Special is an inadequate self-defense cartridge because that's not the case, but a .357 Magnum does offer certain advantages though they're not without cost like recoil and blast.

Quote:
But which rounds would allow you follow-up shots? And which rounds would you practice with more often to ensure you can hit your targets without flinching or dreading the next trigger pull?
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I only carry guns and ammunition which I can shoot at least reasonably well. Yes, the recoil of a small-framed, lightweight revolver in .357 Magnum is quite heavy and is more than I am willing to endure for an extended range session (though other people can and do tolerate it better than I), but from an all-steel revolver like a S&W Model 60, Ruger SP101, S&W K-Frame, or Ruger Security Six, a 50-round session with .357 Magnums is not particularly painful or unpleasant for me.

Likewise, I've never found follow-up shots to be that much of an issue with a .357 Magnum revolver. Honestly, I think that the DA trigger and its reset probably slow me down more than the recoil of the .357 Magnum cartridge does, but that's not such a bad thing as it forces me to slow down just enough to get my sights re-aligned (I have to consciously force myself to slow down with the short, light, triggers of my semi-autos lest my accuracy go to pot).

I've always subscribed to the school of thought that you should choose the most powerful cartridge that you can handle in whatever type of gun you've chosen. For me, in a small to medium frame revolver, that's the .357 Magnum but for others, it may be diffferent.

Quote:
Sound and fury isn't what stops the BG's....otherwise, we'd all carry .500S&W blanks. Accurate hits are what count....and more people are accurate with .38SPL snubs than with .357MAG snubs.....
Most people are more accurate still with a .22 Short, but you won't see very many people saying that it's a wise choice in a self-defense cartridge. Choosing a cartridge is a balancing act between terminal effects and ease of shooting and where exactly that balance lies varies from person to person. Just because you cannot shoot a .357 snub quickly and accurately enough to feel comfortable carrying it doesn't mean that I can't either.
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Last edited by Webleymkv; October 20, 2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old October 20, 2012, 02:19 PM   #79
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Quote:
What would be the practical difference in these rounds in a BG at close range? Any of those would cause significant tissue damage to vital organs. But which rounds would allow you follow-up shots? And which rounds would you practice with more often to ensure you can hit your targets without flinching or dreading the next trigger pull?
Data from real police shootings shows that the 357 mag is significantly superior to the 38 Special. The reputation of the 357 Magnum as a fight stopper was made well before hollow point ammunition was in wide spread use by law enforcement. There were guys I worked with in the early 1980's that used 357 LSWC on patrol.

Blast and recoil are range issues, you will never notice it in a life threatening encounter. Follow up shot are completely dependent on your skill level. A 357 Magnum is a powerful weapon and takes dedication to master, it is not for everyone.

Like Dirty Harry said; "A man has got to know his limitations."
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Old October 21, 2012, 09:37 PM   #80
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Did someone say muzzle blast?


That's me wife shooting her Taurus 650 with a 125gr jhp running right at 1300fps. That load ran a deviation of 57fps in a 20 rd string over the chrony. And yes, she can make very quick follow up shots (only practices double taps) and keep them on COM.
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Old October 31, 2012, 05:38 PM   #81
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just some fyi

Took my chronograph to the range yesterday for the first time.
Aguila 124 FMJ out of Glock 17 averaged 1140fps
Hi Power averaged 20 fps slower
Taurus 709 Slim averaged 940 fps

Winchester 40S&W 165 FMJ white box averaged 1070 fps from a Springfield EMP - 3 inch barrel

I handloaded some 125 gr Hornady XTP over 7 grains of Unique to have practice ammo to emulate my Hornady Critical Defense 357 ammo. It averaged 1040 out of my LCR 357. Seems to snap about the same as critical defense, but my load is more accurate. I was told that the flash was about 6 inches long in direct sunlight. I have shot but not chronographed Remington UMC 125 357. Lots of blast and it stings sharply. Same for Fiocchi Extrema 158 gr 357. Not as painful as the Remington 125. Spectators said the flash was a foot or more long in direct sunlight.

I shoot the LCR better than the Springfield, so i guess I am finally learning how to shoot double action.
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Old October 31, 2012, 06:14 PM   #82
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Quote:
This is absolutely nothing more than good old common sense...
Whose 'Common sense' is the standard ? My 'Common sense' says that more velocity, even 50 fps, gives more kinetic energy and more momentum. It also tells me that more of these two considerations is better under all circumstances.
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Old October 31, 2012, 06:35 PM   #83
Hal
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Quote:
It also tells me that more of these two considerations is better under all circumstances.
I'm happy for you...
Personally, I'd trade off a couple hundered supposed fps gain - which may or may not be there anyhow, for a quicker follow up shot.
However - you seem to be ok with thinking an extra 50 fps is better so fine.
Feel free to believe what you want.
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Old November 1, 2012, 02:29 AM   #84
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Feel free to believe what you want.
Why thank you. I don't mind if I do.
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Old November 3, 2012, 07:52 AM   #85
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I have a Taurus 617 7-shot steel .357 snubbie ... it's a tad heavy to carry, but after a trip to a 'smith for a trigger job and opening the cylinder-barrel gap, it's hidden in my living room, loaded with .38 +p Hornady Critical Defense ... Excellent gun, accurate, easy to shoot ...
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Old December 16, 2012, 04:22 PM   #86
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From a short barrel, loadings with heavy bullets are actually the most efficient. This is because it takes more pressure to push a heavier bullet out of the case than a light one and thus a greater percentage of the powder is burned inside the case rather than in the barrel. This also means that, with a short barrel, a smaller percentage of the powder burns after the bullet has already left the barrel and thus velocity "loss"...............

why bring that up?? is powder burning efficieny at all meaningfull if you are trying to kill an violent intruder??? if the 125 g moves a bit snappier through drywall why even mention efficiency of so-called powder burn....if that is a 'myth' to begin with.
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Old December 16, 2012, 04:43 PM   #87
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has anyone fired both the lcr 357 and a sp101 with the same 357 ammo and can anyone speak to their determinations of how each handled the recoil of that ammo???

i know the lcr357 runs about 6 or 7 ounces lighter than sp101 but does the design and plastic and thick rubber handle make up for the weight difference with similar recoil????
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Old December 19, 2012, 07:39 PM   #88
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I like my Rossi

I hit the target 90% of the time (I usually only hit it 66% of the time with basically every other gun I've tried unless it's the S&W No. 29 or has a laser sight) You can put thousands of rounds into it, and it will last a lifetime, with proper care. Stainless Steel, so it's just heavy enough that your wrist won't lay in wait to get you for shooting a .357 Magnum. It performs or outperforms the S&W's I've used (except the No. 29).

That's my 2 cents worth to introduce myself to the forum.
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Old December 19, 2012, 08:42 PM   #89
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when the BG is on top of you and that 21/4 barrel .357 in full bore ammo is fired directly into his gut region youll see what kind of difference that blast makes
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