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Old September 7, 2012, 01:20 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
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Exasperation levels reaching critical.

I'm really trying to like Lee products. In fact, I can say I do like them. With one notable exception.

The charge loading department.

I have already posted about the under-charging nature of my auto-disk pro. However, after a number of trial runs with different crimps and having settled on one of them, I was confident about moving from the 1.26 disk (reference chart says 12.9gr of N350, actual is 12.5/6 gr but bumped up to 12.9 with a dipper) to the 1.36 disk (reference chart says 13.9gr of N350, actual is 13.2/3 gr).

A bit of a jump (0.4gr), but well below max charges for my bullet choice.

I also know that I have to run the auto disk about 4 times (at the start), before charges settle in consistency. They usually start at the reference dose, but then progressively drop over 3 or so pulls of the lever to reach the actual charges I quoted above. Each is checked with a Hornady digital scale that I calibrate at the beginning and regularly re-tare with the powder tray in situ...

Ohhhhh, but today....
I decided to load 30 rounds before a morning slot reserved at the range. It should have been simple: set-up, charge my auto-disk, check consistency then knock out about 3 cartridges a minute...

It started off as usual: 1.36 disk, dishing out 13.9, then 13.6, then 13.2..... and then 12.6, 12.4, 12.6 etc!!!!

What?! 12.6gr ?!
This is getting absurd.

I now have to use the auto disk as a glorified dipper, and then tip the case into the scale's tray, measure, top-up to 12.9gr (my proven starting load), and then re-charge that same case.

It makes what should be acheived in one lever pull, a lenthgy, tedious task of a minute or so. Not so long, you say, but still an avoidable waste of time.

Annoyed.

I can live with the under-charging disks... as long as they undercharge consistently. But at the moment, this is more of a flip of the coin...

If it is not the measure, then it is the scales, and the only effect I can think of there is the temperature. Autumn is here, and whilst not cold, my garage is much cooler and a bit damper than the last time I reloaded, some 8 days ago...

I don't want to spend more, but knowing I could load faster, but being limited like this really takes the wind out of my reloading sails.

So, do brands like RCBS make dispensers that are compatible with Lee charging dies?
Or do I need to buy new bar scales...
Or what?

Sorry for the long post, but it was a catharthis as a well as a question...
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Old September 7, 2012, 01:59 AM   #2
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I don't have an auto-disk, so can't offer specific help there. I do have a Lyman 55, A Lee Perfect Powder Measure, A Redding Model 3, and a RCBS Quick Change along with the measure on my Dillon 550b. Every one of them needs a few throws to settle in. Some work better with ball powders and others work better with extruded. The RCBS measure seems to work the best with flake powders.

Is the autodisk set up in a similar fasion to the PPM in that turning the hopper stops the flow? If so, I'd check and make sure it is opened all the way. I put index marks on my hopper to verify it was fully open or closed and didn't have to remember which way was which.
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Old September 7, 2012, 02:19 AM   #3
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Make sure the disk is coming out all the way. It's easy to not have it do this and will cause charge variation. I've done it and have read of others with the same problem. You just need to screw in the charging/belling die a tad more.

Even with Unique my charges don't vary more than .2 grains. I am trying Universal and it's 90% right on the money with the other 10% being .1 grain over.

The Auto Disk should work fine. Go over everything and make sure it is correct. There's many thousands of users out there putting out millions of rounds without issues. There is a Pro Auto disk conversion kit available. It's well worth the few bucks.
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Old September 7, 2012, 01:30 PM   #4
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Operator error
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Old September 7, 2012, 01:54 PM   #5
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When you find a measure, for under $200.00 that throws the same charge no matter what the humidity, temp, static cling, or lot to lot variation in powder is, let us all know. By the way, all volume based powder measures are just glorified powder dippers.

Go ahead and sell all the Lee stuff and buy something more expensive. That will solve all your problems.
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Old September 7, 2012, 02:05 PM   #6
the led farmer
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what powder are you using?
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Old September 7, 2012, 02:23 PM   #7
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There's no measure like that even at over $200. Lot to lot variation in powder bulk density see to that.


James,

Ponder this: A pencil. Use it to tap the side of the hopper twice each time the disk is in the powder receiving position, and again twice when it is in the dispensing position. See if that helps dispensing uniformity.

Make sure the quick-change hopper is fully rotated to let powder fall.

I would also recommend cutting a second baffle (in addition to the built-in one) for the hopper out of a beer can that drops the powder at right angles to where it enters the measure, then keeping the powder level in the hopper above that of the baffle.

Don't store powder in the hopper. You want uniform bulk density, so keep it all together between loading sessions to keep moisture uninvolved.

You can download my baffle templates and instructions in pdf format, here.

Hope that helps,

Nick
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Old September 7, 2012, 08:27 PM   #8
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Let me start by saying that every piece of equipment (Lee Pro Auto Disk in this case) does not give exactly the same results. So you MAY have a PAD that will not work correctly. However, they are actually pretty simple devises.
Over the years I have had dippers, Lyman #55, Ohaus Duo-measure, RCBS Uniflow, Hornady Lock n Load and two PAD's. Except for the Hornady, which came with my LnL AP and I have not unpacked, the PAD's are by far the easiest to set up and the most consistent. I have one on my LnL AP now and from the first throw thru the last it is completely consistent.
Setting them up is really pretty easy.

1. Wipe everything, inside and out with a new dryer sheet. I leave a rolled up one in the resivoire(sp) when I finish loading.

2. Puff powdered graphite on the base and the top of the disk before you assemble it, everytime you change disks.

3. Tighten the brass nuts FIRMLY but not overly tight. The disk needs to slide freely.

4. Adjust the measure so that the hole in the disk is directly over the hole in the base when the at the top of the stroke. The position of the disk at this point is controlled by screwing the expander/flare/powder drop die in or out of the turret.

On my Lee Classic Turret I usually drop five loads into an empty case before I start loading. I then weigh the first five powder drops, then the tenth, twentieth, fortieth, etc. Nine times out of ten EVERY ONE I drop is right on with what the disk actually drops. Any variance is negligible.
On the LnL there is not even any swinging as a turret is turned. I do not slam, rap, knock in any manner. In fact I do not even use a riser.

The table in the instructions is, of course, only a guide and the disk always will throw lighter than the guide. Actually, the PAD is the only measure I have had that has a reference to even get you in the ball park. My Duo-measure does have a graph, which is entirely useless.

All in all, I am amazed everytime I use it that a $29 devise can be so completely consistent.

Keep trying with yours, and I hope something here might help a little bit.
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Old September 7, 2012, 09:13 PM   #9
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James,
Make sure that your hopper is not rotating from the "Open" to "Closed" position. There is a screw on the bottom of the hopper that controls how hard it is to turn it from "On" to "Off". When I first started using mine it was very easy to rotate and during a long reloading session I got lazy about weighing my charges and let about 20 go by then noticed that I was only putting about half the amount of powder in the last few cases. I tightened that screw and haven't had any problems since.

Also, Uncle Nick's powder baffle system works great! Using a double baffle and HP38 my charges are remarkably consistent (NEVER more than .1gr either way) no matter if I am throwing 3.3gr for light 38spc target loads or 5.0 for 45ACP. Ball powders are your friend when using the AutoDisk.

Hope this helps.
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Old September 7, 2012, 10:34 PM   #10
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Good advice above, so I will not duplicate them but for one that bears repeating.

The alignment of the 1) cavity with the drop opening from the hopper into the cavity and from the 2) cavity into the drop opening into the case is vital. If they are not lined up in the first case, you may not be filling the cavity completely (having a void in one corner of the disk cavity). If they are not lined up in the second case, some powder may be left on the "ledge" (this is more critical with the larger diameter cavities, of course).

Take the powder hopper completely off the auto-disk and check the movement of the disk to clearly and easily see if the disk cavity lines up with the drop into the case. Note the position of the front of the disk. Then with the hopper in place, see that the front of the disk comes all the way to that point.

So much for repeating one of the ideas already voiced.

If you decide to eschew the auto-disk, the next most convenient and productive option is to put the funnel adapter back on the die and use a calibrated powder dipper or scoop to drop powder charges. You can even weigh them individually (if you feel you must) before dumping them into the case, which will be much more efficient than the method you described in your original post.

The Lee Funnel is sized to slip easily and securely into the funnel adapter and only costs $4. I have an RCBS funnel that was just a little oversized (but a judicious use of sandpaper can take care of that).

Other power measures can be adapted to fit the Lee die, but some artful design and machining must be done to make a mount that will work and the automatic dump of powder is often problematic. Frankly, I would disconnect the Lee's actuating lever and operate the disk movement by hand before going that route.

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Old September 7, 2012, 10:36 PM   #11
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There is a reason that so many people regret buying Lee loading equipment. Spend the money and get quality equipment like Dillon and never look back.

So many people regret their initial purchases of Lee equipment. You are not alone. Just get a Dillon.
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Old September 7, 2012, 10:57 PM   #12
the led farmer
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So many people? Please. Nothing wrong with lee equipment and if your not getting lee equipment to work satisfactorily then I going to say operator error.

pond, james pond didn't we cover this problem in another thread of yours?

Save your money for supplies, buy lee!
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Old September 7, 2012, 11:15 PM   #13
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With SO MANY PEOPLE having problems with lee products I'm surprised they can stay in business! Seriously quit the bashing. All companies have a lemon every now and then (yes even Dillon). Maybe yours has a defect or maybe you need to play with it a little.

Try all the suggestions and I'm sure it will be fine for you. The kind of powder you use with the PAD really makes a difference too.

Good Luck!

Mac
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:37 AM   #14
joshf128
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I'm happy with my Lee equipment (LCT with Autodisk and Autoprime).

Does it take a little tweaking? Yes.

Does it work perfectly with every powder and every caliber straight out of the box? No.

Can I crank out 200 rounds of pistol ammo per hour for 1/4 the cost of a Dillon? Absolutely. And I would much rather spend the extra money on another gun or more components at this point.

I'm not taking anything away from Dillon. They are amazing, but I don't need one to be successful at reloading.
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Old September 8, 2012, 04:54 AM   #15
Pond, James Pond
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Hi all. I must have you lot groaning with despondency...

Quote:
didn't we cover this problem in another thread of yours?
Yes!
..... and no.

Previously, I had been perplexed by the fact that the auto-disk did not dispense the loads as indicated on the paper: I now understand why that is and accept it as being a guide. That was with my starting load thorugh the 1.26 disk.

I can live with that especially as, having nailed my best crimp, I could move on up to the next disk: 1.36. In principle that would dish out near my maximum charge, but in practice it dispensed on 0.4gr above my min. in other words about 13.2gr.

That I was also happy with: I wasn't looking for hot loads.

My main complaint here is the massive inconsistency. Last time, I took pre-primed cases and used the turret function to make bullets with three pulls of the lever. Having checked the charges for the first dozen or so, I could see 13.2gr coming out each time, according to the Hornady scales.

Once more, I set up the bench, half-filled the hopper and opened the feed (the action is firm, but smooth: once opened it won't budge back to closed with my input). I dispensed a dozen charges: first was spot on the book value: 13.8 or so, then it dropped with each charge, as expected to 13.2gr. However, once there I like to pull another few to make sure it is consistent and this time it kept dropping to settle on a consistent 12.6 or 12.7gr. That is less than the book value for the 1.26 aperture.

So it is a bit different from the my last issue: it is not a disk metering out less than expected by the book, it is a disk metering out far less than it had the last time I used it. That is my concern.

I have also noticed that I have powder on my worktop and I noticed that if I am too positive with the lever the internal edge of the disk aperture actually extends past the out edge of the auto-disk frame.
So, if you pull too firmly that edge can poke past the edge of the base-plate, dropping some powder on the work top before it can drop down through the feed hole to the die below.
Now, regardless of the rest of the system, that is a design flaw.

It could be the change in the weather: it is a bit damper in the air, and the temperature is now about 12 celsius, but my powder and scales are stored at home, and they'd only been out for 20 minutes.

It could be the scales, but I calibrated them at the beginning of the session.

It could be
Quote:
Operator error
but I really didn't conciously do anything differently and being new to this I am quite deliberate in all the actions I take as they are not engrained yet...:
Powder charge: slow but firm pull of the lever, all the way down, with a double "tap" of the lever when it reaches the bottom of its travel, before raising it for the bullet seater die. (User error would be ideal!! It's by far the cheapest to fix!!)

I will go back out there today and try again to see what happens. I can live with not having equipment to make reloading easier, but I don't like equipment that I don't have confidence in.

Re the graphite and dryer sheets: dryer sheets are not sold here: no really market for them as most people don't own dryers and graphite powder: I have no idea who might stock this and none of my acquaintences know. If I find some, I'll get it.

PS: I am perfectly happy with my Lee gear. The only exceptions are the safety scales that I found fiddly: I prefer digital, and this auto-disk. And if I can resolve that, I'm quite happy to keep it.
However, if it is not up to the job, for whatever reason, I may as well look to alternatives...
One product not working for me is not the same as thinking a brand being junk, so I don't want to sell the lot and buy a Dillon progressive. I want to find a solution to this one issue...
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Last edited by Pond, James Pond; September 8, 2012 at 05:37 AM.
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Old September 8, 2012, 05:35 AM   #16
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Run a pound or two through the powder measure. That will coat it with graphite. I had trouble with my AD once. It turned out my powder had trash in it. IDK how it got there, but there were little pieces of paper in my, brand new, jug of powder. I ended up sifting it. That fixed the problem.

Sometimes it helps to take the measure apart and reassemble it. Another thing to check for is if the body is getting stuck/jammed/hung on the actuator. I polished mine so it would operate more smoothly. I updated it when it was 25 years old and the new parts would jam/bind up every now and then. I was getting inconsistent throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh0okoL95vc
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Old September 8, 2012, 05:41 AM   #17
Pond, James Pond
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I'll give that a go. I will also disassembe it to have a look-see....

Have you noticed the disk aperture extending beyond the edge of the frame as I described?

I think it is only an issue on large disk ports.
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Old September 8, 2012, 07:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Re the graphite and dryer sheets: dryer sheets are not sold here: no really market for them as most people don't own dryers and graphite powder: I have no idea who might stock this and none of my acquaintences know. If I find some, I'll get it.
Around here you find graphite powder at the hardware store. It's sold for lubricating locksets. Works great on door locks and padlocks without gumming up the works. I also use it to lube the priming mechanism on my 550b. Use it anywhere you need a dry lubricant, but be careful using it around the house. The stuff stains matte paint surfaces pretty bad. It can be cleaned off, but it easier to try to keep it off of stuff you don't want it on in the first place.
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Old September 8, 2012, 08:00 AM   #19
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If the disc is extending beyond the frame check your adjustment because it should not. Having your powder through expanding die set too deep causes this, when you actuate the lever it should stop flush and not extend over. This needs to corrected whether or not it's the cause of your current issue. If your spilling powder I am guessing yes, it contributes to your light charges.

This can also give you excessive flare on the case (maybe contributing to your crimp issues?) or flat out buckle them.

Also remember consistency is key, same motions, rotate the turret fully in all 4 stations EVERY TIME you throw a charge etc.

In my experience ball powders work best with lee discs, but I know you said powder is not easy for you to come by
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Old September 8, 2012, 08:10 AM   #20
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James, see item #4 in post #8 above.
The disk should be about even with the front of the measure base at the top of the stroke. Adjust this by screwing your die in or out.
As stated, graphite should be available wherever they sell/make keys or locks. Any anti-static wipe should do the same as a dryer sheet.
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:03 AM   #21
Pond, James Pond
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OK... that was interesting...

I loaded 36 rounds this afternoon. The two hours it took were mostly spent playing around with the auto-disk and checking loads!!

First, I ran about half a pound of powder through the dismantled hopper (the remainder of my powder). I think my powder's mama was a credit card, because it is really clingy with anything plastic!
That may be part of the problem, and another reason to source some kind of anti-static product.

On the whole, by being "positive" with my lever movement, and/or knocking the hopper base with a small screwdriver handle as well as double tapping the handle on the charging stage, I got 1.36 disk charges to go up beyond minimum charges for N350 powder.

However, there were still huge variations over the course of the afternoon. My lowest charge from that disk was 12.7gr, but that was a one off this time. However, a number of charges I checked were 13.0, 13.2, 13.3, 13.4 or 13.5gr. I even got a 13.6 once!!

OK, so these are all within the Min-Max range, but still that is not normal...

I understand the need to be consistent in the things that I do, but a piece of equipment that is seemingly so susceptible to small changes in operator input, despite being set-up and left alone, is not really on, IMO (see below for possible cause)...

I also spent a lot of time playing with hopper height. @ LED Farmer: I tried raising the whole die, but lost my case mouth flare and so I put a fatter rubber O-ring on the thread of the autodisk instead.

That meant that when the lever came all the way down the disk aperture was quite flush with the edges of the through-feed but still got some grains on the ledge though, so I may have to ream the edges of the through-feed port, under the disk aperture.

So that was one problem solved.

However, then I noticed that there was still spillage and I noticed that when I got to the FCD stage or when I ran past the capping/sizing die stage, more grains would fall from the open expander die mount.

On some turns it did it, on others it did not.

I checked the brass screws: tight.
I checked the mating surfaces with a torch: tight
I looked down the top of the through feed and disk on the charging stage to be sure all the powder had gone south: clear.
I eased the Auto Disk off and looked at the lip of the expander: clear...

So it seems that somewhere in the charging die and auto-disk set-up there is a chance for a dozen or so grains of powder to be trapped between the disk's aperture and the bullet expander, the then fall out later in the process.

I collected the fallen grains on about 4 or 5 occasions, during the course of making up those 36 rounds, and photographed one such collection.

It was a full grain of powder, not counting what fell to the ground. So there could be quite a few grains in total that never made it into the cases.

It's not tidy, it's a waste and ultimately, over time, probably not too safe!!

As I said earlier, I may not be doing things beuatifully, but I do feel a piece of kit should not be so sensitive to external factors. Either it dishes out the right charge, an overcharge or undercharge but it should at least be consistent.

Really am stumped at the moment.
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:23 AM   #22
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For any powder measure to be consistant, you (the operator) must be consistant. Every throw needs to be exactly the same as the previous throw (same speed, same pressure, same powder column, same throw length, etc). On a progressive press you can't control these as much and get erratic operation. Besides, some powders will bridge...
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:40 AM   #23
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I would say your static issue is one big part. You sure you can't get anti static sheets or one of those sprays? If you run the full lb through it when it is ready to go maybe will coat everything and get rid of some of the sticking. Maybe someone can mail you a couple sheets?
I don't have a Lee, but wasn't there a fix for the leaking on Lee drops that involved filing the plastic base flat so a seal scrapes the way it should? Or is the one of the other models? Someone?
I would look for any openings or area that the powder can slip by and see what can be done to fix it, maybe just a peice of tape or a homemade gasket somewhere.
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:49 AM   #24
Pond, James Pond
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Quote:
For any powder measure to be consistant, you (the operator) must be consistant.
I know what you are saying, but I'm not feathering the lever on one pull then body slamming it on the next in different combinations.

I may not be doing all the best things a reloader should do, but my movements are not poles apart: they are pretty even.... The charges are not.

It has a fixed aperture, it moves through a fixed trajectory, it should deliver a fixed charge.

That the charge may not be what they claim on the box, I can live with an work around, but such fluctuations are not OK.

As I said, if it is that sensitive, then there is something wrong with the design. Or mine is faulty.

Quote:
I would look for any openings or area that the powder can slip by
The only place I can see/think of that could retain powder in the die channel is either where the autodisk's steel tube mates with the anodised base (there is a gap between the two of about 1mm) or between the expander through feed and that same steel tube, but how come, when it is a vertaical gravity feed?!
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:53 AM   #25
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Heck Lee powder measure is a good thrower at a great price I have (2) On for my 9's & the other for adjusting. I'll keep mine for volume same in winter as in summer ; ) Do Tell
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