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Old September 6, 2012, 02:03 PM   #26
boosteddc5
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^thanks, what needs to be done to the gun is this: Pin the rear collapsible stock so it is not collapsible anymore, shave off the bayonet lug, and permanently attach a compensator (can not be a flash hiding device). I called buds and they told me they can not ship out a rifle that isnt awb compliant. awb stands for assault weapons ban. so basically im limited to an awb compliant model if i order online. Really wanted the rock river but i guess that is not an option. So now I'm leaning towards the windham weaponry mpc-ny (just an mpc that is ny compliant), the bushmaster m4a3 post ban carbine and a custom build from palmetto state.

Edit: So basically if I ordered the parts from PSA I would need to have the stock pinned and on the complete upper I would need a compensator permanently attached and the bayonet lug shaved off. Can't seem to find a way to order these two parts this way already. I know these two parts don't go through the FFL so would I just bring it to a gunsmith and have them make the modifications before I assemble the firearm? Or is it illegal to own the parts even if not assembled as a complete firearm?
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Old September 6, 2012, 02:19 PM   #27
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PSA are GTG from what I hear... I will be building two ARs using their parts soon.

BTW the RRA entry tactical is not a free floated barrel.

Windham and PSA are about equal in quality. Maybe not as good as say, Colt or BCM, but real close.

You can buy upgraded triggers all day long for $100 or less, so if you buy a rifle and do not like the trigger, then buy the upgrade later.

If you do go the build your own lower route... buy the compliant parts up front... its a violation just to own them, let alone actually put them in a functioning firearm. PSA might not have a FSB that does not have a bayonet lug. You may need to look elsewhere for a compliant upper. BCM sells uppers but they raise the cost a good bit... Spikes Tactical is just a little more than PSA... I think Windham sells uppers as well... actually many places sell just uppers. PSA, Spikes, and Windham are the budget but still high quality sellers... others may be cheaper, but their quality is suspect.

Only the lowers are required to go to the FFL for transfer.

The good thing about sourcing an upper separate, you can get it set up how you want. The upper is were most of the important stuff happens, and is where parts wear out fastest.

Lowers are all pretty much the same from a functionality standpoint. (quality is a different subject) You might choose a match trigger or a few other options... but the job of the lower is pretty simple.
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Old September 6, 2012, 02:32 PM   #28
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Good to know. Really wanted a rock river so I'm pretty disappointed about that. The windham is sounding pretty good to me. Just wish there were more testimonials on quality. My local shop has them just as cheap as buds, so they are seeming like a pretty viable option. The bushmaster m4a3 post ban carbine is still in the running, when I handled that gun I really liked it, just don't know if I want the 14.5 inch barrel. Although I could always get a new barrel sometime later on. If I knew the quality, accuracy, performance and durability of the windham was on par with bushmaster and rock river, it would probably end up being the one I purchase. Just seems risky buying from a company thats only been around a year. Yes i know windham is owned by the previous owner of bushmaster, has the old workers of bushmaster and is in the old factory of bushmaster, but I'm still a little concerned. Also if I can find a way to put together a compliant PSA how hard would it be to put the lower parts kit in the lower and to attach a collapsible buttstock?
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Old September 6, 2012, 02:49 PM   #29
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If I knew the quality, accuracy, performance and durability of the windham was on par with bushmaster and rock river, it would probably end up being the one I purchase
It is.....if not more so...
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Old September 6, 2012, 03:02 PM   #30
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Anyone have any insight on the trigger problem I've heard about? I've heard on the windhams that after a couple mag dumps the trigger gets really stiff. Not that I will be doing that with the rifle but, it would be nice to know what causes this, and if adding a 2 stage trigger will solve the problem, as I plan to add one when I purchase the rifle.
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Old September 6, 2012, 03:27 PM   #31
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I honestly have never heard of them having that problem, and a quick google search did not turn up any results. I don't think it is something that I would worry about if you aren't going to be doing mag dumps.

However, for the most part, stock AR triggers are bad (I haven't found any that I like out-of-the-box). Replace them with a better trigger, and you are good to go.


Here on ar15.com is a thread about WW ARs. It is in the WW section, so you won't get too many negatives, but there is a representative from Windham that seems to be very helpful with everything. The Windham guns have a lifetime warranty, and I would not hesitate to buy one with the kind of service that is being given over there on ARF.

Last edited by allaroundhunter; September 6, 2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old September 6, 2012, 03:57 PM   #32
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^thanks for the thread, made me more confident in the windham. As far as triggers go I do plan on changing it out to a two stage trigger. My buddies bushmaster varminter has a 2 stage on it and I absolutely love that trigger compared to other AR's I have shot. I was thinking the RRA 2 stage national match trigger, any others I should consider?
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Old September 6, 2012, 04:21 PM   #33
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Hey agian . Putting together a lower is not that hard . Plenty of youtube videos out there. You will need a set of punch's , hammer .and a butt stock wrench .

If you get the 14.5 " upper from PSA they will pin and weld the brake for you . I think for $30 more . accuracy will not be an issue .

Search the web for fixed stocks . there are alot of cool looking ones . Here's a couple

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/183...c=subv1_760499

YOU WILL NEED an A2 buffer tube for this next one

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/231...-308-synthetic

[url]http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/a2-rifle-stock-kit.html[/ur

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...ato-model.html

Happy hunting

I built this one for just over $1,000 out the door



And this one I bought complete for $850 out the door



Good luck
Metal

Last edited by Metal god; September 6, 2012 at 04:27 PM.
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Old September 6, 2012, 04:33 PM   #34
marine6680
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Stock AR triggers are not the best... they may break in ok after a while... but they are not match by any means.

There is nothing hard about putting together an AR, even the upper. The most complicated bit is torquing the barrel properly, and maybe head space. Both are really just a matter of knowing how to do it, the actual process is simple and easy to understand.

There are videos online on building the lower. A guy did it in less than ten minutes while also instructing how to do it. Its a few pins and springs, not very hard to do.
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Old September 6, 2012, 11:05 PM   #35
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Thanks for the info everyone. I'm kind of still deciding whether or not to buy the parts from psa and build it, or to buy a windham weaponry compliant rifle. I really like the windham honestly. Also I was reading on ar15.com that you can have a non compliant rifle shipped to a company called ADCO and they will make it compliant for 95 bucks plus the cost of a compensator. Seems like a viable option. Kinda starting to stray away from the bushmaster post ban carbine.
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Old September 7, 2012, 12:45 AM   #36
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Also I was reading on ar15.com that you can have a non compliant rifle shipped to a company called ADCO and they will make it compliant for 95 bucks plus the cost of a compensator.
That is getting expensive....for that price you are getting close to an already compliant Colt
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Old September 7, 2012, 01:00 AM   #37
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Word on the forums is that after Bushmaster was bought, and production moved, quality went down. (this move is why Windham exists... I would bet they have something to prove as well, so they will make a good rifle for the price)

So I say get the Windham or build your own compliant lower and put on a compliant upper...

The advantage of the Windham... its available and cheaper than other option but good quality.

The advantage of building your own... you can get it how you want it and you get a better knowledge of how the rifle works. If you build... try to find a mid length gas system. Lower recoil and less stress on the action.
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Old September 7, 2012, 01:44 AM   #38
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^both good points. I find myself almost trying to find a reason not to buy the rra and to buy the windham. Pretty sure I'm going to get the windham. The other thing is with the modifications from adco + shipping costs the rra only costs about 80 bucks more than the windham with a nice 2 stage trigger. Still really think I should just get the windham. One question I have to ask though, what are the pros and cons of having a chrome lined barrel vs having a regular chome-moly barrel? Anyone have info on that?
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Old September 7, 2012, 02:37 AM   #39
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Ok so wanted to add something in here... I built a psa rifle the way I want it but, it comes with a bayonet lug on the upper and the only 2 options for compliant muzzle devices are brakes I don't really care for. Question is, if I order the upper with the bayonet lug and just an a2 flash hider, can I buy the compliant brake I want and just have a gunsmith take off the bayonet lug and permanently attach my compliant brake? this would be a good option cause OTD the psa is a little over 700 bucks the way I configured it and that includes shipping! Also the psa is a 1-7 twist while the windham is a 1-9 twist. Which twist do you prefer and why? And I'd still like to know the pros and cons of having a chrome lined barrel vs a plain chrome moly barrel. Sorry for all the questions, just wanna make sure I get a rifle I'll be happy with!
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Old September 7, 2012, 03:34 AM   #40
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Lots of good questions man. Keep asking away, thats always a good way to learn from others.

How much is the Wyndham AR? If I was to choose, I would suggest getting the Wyndham if its already AWB compliant. I've personally held one at my local gun shop and the quality was just as good as my previous Bushmaster M4A3 Carbine, and probably the same as RRA (without the 2-stage trigger of course). My local price for the Wyndham was $729 btw, just for comparison. thats only a $29 difference from the PSA, and its already built! (although thats in my state without the restrictions of stocks, flash hiders, etc).

Remember that If you buy the Wyndham, you can always change/add things yourself, like the 2-stage trigger and the free-float handguards. The 2-stage trigger install is pretty easy. The free-float handguard might be a bit more involved because you will need certain tools, so I recommend buying the handguard and paying a gunsmith to install it for you. Shouldn't be too much anyway, unless you want to do it yourself and learn (not hard either, but you'll have to research and buy some AR15 tools).

As far as the PSA, that's a good 2nd option. I have a PSA complete upper in 300Blackout and its excellent quality for the price. I ordered mine with the free-float handguard that was already installed by PSA before they shipped it to me, so this could be a good alternative if you want to go that route. Also is possible to get the PSA upper without the A2 front sight post and flashider, therefore it wont have the bayonet lug already. You probably will just end up paying a little extra for PSA to do those for you.

Here's a good read on chrome-lined vs chrome moly barrels.
http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4628

Basically from what I read chrome-lined will just last longer, easier to clean, cost a bit more, but less accurate at longer distances past 300yards. Chrome-moly is more accurate but gets dirtier easily (not an issue if you like to clean your rifles anyway), cheaper but less lifespan (not a big issue). For casual shooters like us it won't matter if you get chrome-lined or chrome-moly. More personal preference I guess.
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Old September 7, 2012, 05:28 AM   #41
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^^ What he said.

As far as compliance and PSA... call them up and see if they can remove the bayonet lug for you and change the flash hider before shipping. They build the upper when you order it. So it takes a while to ship, as they need time to make it first. Talk to them before hand and see what they can do for you. They are a small shop with a lot of calls, so you may get a busy signal or no answer. When you do get someone on the line, they are helpful. I had an issue with an order once, and they fixed it no problem.

Or you can build the upper from parts yourself, or try another company upper. Spikes tactical is a good alternative.

PSA has the lowest prices on lowers and lower parts. So you can stick with them there... then go with a spikes compliant upper. (if they have/make one... plus Spikes and PSA have a bit of a rivalry going... mostly from the fact that Spikes was once what PSA is now... the cheapest maker that actually has good quality. So mixing them would be hilarious to me)

(if Spikes does not have a compliant upper or the ability to get you one, there are several upper makers... Windham might, look on their site... Armalite does, BCM does... heck if you want to get real fancy, LWRC sells uppers... they Nitride their barrels, making it the best of a standard steel barrel and chrome lined rolled onto one)

Switching to a two stage or match trigger is not hard if you get the Windham... about 15 minutes of time and the cost of the parts. The price varies by brand of course. Some can get very expensive, but I doubt you need to spend more than $60-75 on a good one.

Twist rate...

1/9 will work for most rounds you are likely to fire. It stabilizes all the common weight bullets.

1/7 will stabilize all the common bullet weights, (minus very light bullets that are not too common) plus the ability to stabilize the longer/heavier specialty bullets... usually special defense or match focused rounds. (not all defense or match rounds need the 1/7, its just that some exist) 1/7 is Milspec... because it was needed to stabilize tracer rounds.

Last edited by marine6680; September 7, 2012 at 05:39 AM.
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Old September 7, 2012, 08:54 PM   #42
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Thanks for all the good info guys. I understand the 1-7 is for heavier/longer bullets and the 1-9 is for pretty much the middle of the road rounds, just wanted some opinions on what people prefer as the psa is 1-7 and the windham is 1-9. The psa seems like a really good option if I can get it without breaking any laws as far as the lug and flash hider. The windham just seems so much easier - just order the rifle, then pick it up from my local gun shop. Although I don't mind waiting if it means getting exactly what I want. Any other opinions on the quality of psa and whether you prefer 1-7 or 1-9 for a plinker/target carbine ar?
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Old September 7, 2012, 10:40 PM   #43
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Although I don't mind waiting if it means getting exactly what I want. Any other opinions on the quality of psa and whether you prefer 1-7 or 1-9 for a plinker/target carbine ar?
My AR is a 1:9, and it handles rounds up to 75 gr just fine. With a 16" barrel, mine is not meant to be a precision rifle. It is used for range use, occasional hunting, and defense (home defense and defense against feral dogs).

You really are splitting hairs between these two guns (which is not uncommon with how many variations of the AR platform there can be), so you really would not be disappointed with either. Personally, I would rather avoid the trouble of making the PSA compliant (unless they will do it for you at the factory), and go with the Windham.

One last thought: The cheapest ammo for plinking and target shooting is usually 52-64 gr, so either rifle will handle it just fine.
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Old September 7, 2012, 10:40 PM   #44
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The twist rate... either will work for plinking. They both stabilize all the common surplus, ball, steel cased, and standard .223 that plinkers use. The 1/7 holds the advantage for those who are wanting to go heavier for long range shooting over 300yds.

You can always mix and match parts. If you find an upper you really like, get it, and stick it on the PSA lower. Like I said, another company than PSA may offer you a compliant upper done just how you want it.

PSA offers free float handgaurds with low profile gas blocks... those are usually bayonet lug free.

Here, quoted directly from the Spikes tactical website:

NOTE: Some states and areas, like California, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts require certain options and modifications. Those features can be added to your order under the Services & Tools section. Please check with your local FFL if you have questions regarding legality as we cannot be responsible for laws in every state or county.

Here are two options from Spikes:

Standard mid length upper
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...fsp-p-681.html

Hammer forged barrel... good choice, but a bit more expensive than the standard upper.
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...fsb-p-914.html
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Old September 7, 2012, 10:45 PM   #45
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Hey , If your not planning on doing any long range shooting 300 + yards you will not need the heavier bullets there for you will not need the 1-7 twist . I have both and they both plink just fine . I have noticed that you are vey concerned about accuracy . If you don't mined me asking . what is accurate to you . What size groups are you looking to obtain . If the PSA is chrome lined Check out this thread .

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500146

I also found this lower parts kit for you

http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Rock...letenm-kit.htm
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:42 AM   #46
boosteddc5
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^I appreciate how helpful you all are being and I realize I am splitting hairs. Just want to make sure I get a rifle that I'm glad I own. Anyway I just emailed PSA to see if they will do the modifications. I also plan on looking at the spikes site to see what they offer that is compliant. And I'm also wondering, would it be illegal to have them ship me the upper with the lug and a flash hider, and then before putting it on the lower have a gunsmith shave the lug and attach a comp I provide?
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:05 PM   #47
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Depends... I know that owning the parts to make an AR full auto by themselves without a permit is not illegal... but owning those parts and a fully functioning AR... even if you do not assemble them together is illegal... because you can... I know it seems silly.

Best bet in the absence of concrete knowledge is to err on the side of caution and assume it is illegal.

Last edited by marine6680; September 8, 2012 at 08:08 PM.
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Old September 8, 2012, 10:47 PM   #48
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Good point. I've also been reading a lot of negative comments on the customer service of PSA. Everyone says the quality is great but the customer service, not so much. Somewhat of a concern for me but I don't think it will affect my decision. As long as I get what I order I'm good lol.
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:41 PM   #49
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Yea I got very P.O. with one of my orders from PSA . I even wrote a thread , PSA sucks . I have since apologized for the post . Im not going to get in to it but I'm still not happy with there customer service. I will tell you this . There is a lot of people out there that luv them like PSA is there first born . So don't go saying anything bad about them or you will get trashed , I did and It got so bad the administrator had to close the thread .

I have ordered at least 5 times from them and have always got my stuff , and it's been very good quality .
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Old September 9, 2012, 12:04 AM   #50
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Yeah I've heard nothing but good things about their quality, which is why I'm strongly considering ordering all the parts to build my rifle from them. And I don't have any first hand experience with their customer service, but I did notice a few threads on here and other forums with complaints as to their customer service. Mainly just people upset about how hard it is to get a hold of them when something goes wrong or is incorrect on their orders.
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