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Old September 7, 2012, 02:58 PM   #26
farmerboy
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hunting thick cover Id use the 12 gauge with slugs and more open areas I'd use the 223.
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Old September 7, 2012, 05:03 PM   #27
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I vote with Farmerboy. Thick woods means heavy slugs can bust thru more than the 223 round. Open pasture or grassland between wood make the longer reach of the 223 the choice. I often use a Saiga 12 with slugs here in Indiana, Although a Ruger 44 mag carbine is a good compromise for our Whitetail.
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Old September 7, 2012, 07:45 PM   #28
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"Brush busting" slugs are a myth.

No projectile can hit things and remain on target.

If the target is literally INCHES past the obstacle, maybe. If it's measured in feet, forget it.

I recall an Outdoor Life article from some years ago, wish I still had it, wherein they tested the "brush busting" capabilities of various guns. They had a target that was roughly deer vital zone sized and placed it various distances past the brush. At 18 inches, there was a very low chance of hitting the vital zone area, though I don't remember the exact number.

Anyway, brush busting is a myth and I would guess its responsible for more wounded animals that being undergunned ever has.
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Old September 7, 2012, 08:20 PM   #29
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I'd have to go against your brush busting comment. I used a 30-30 for years in thick woods. If I seen a deer behind some thick brush and the deer was moving I'd wait but if deer was holed up or seen me and you didn't have a shot. You just took shot into thick youpam and all and I once shot a 5 inch youpam and nailed it perfectly then went another 10 yards and killed deer deader than dead! Alot of statistics are for people to make them believe theyre smarter than everyone else sometimes. Go by what really happens instead of some statistic that you read about!
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Old September 7, 2012, 09:18 PM   #30
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I've sent a few rounds down range in my time. My experience supports the tests shown in the article I mentioned.
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Old September 8, 2012, 07:26 AM   #31
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Of the three, with which is there the most familiarity? With which can desired hits most easily be made?

From a killing-deer standpoint, any of the three will work. To me, the issue is which one is most likely to give a kill-hit. Plenty of good slugs; plenty of good bullets in .223 which will work well on deer.
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:30 AM   #32
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Perceptions of what a Deer Hunter ought to look like or what kind of gun he ought to be carrying have changed a lot. 30+ years ago I did some hunting with an SKS and my friends threw a fit, said I was some kind of Rambo. That gun never failed me and I took at least 7 deer with it. 20 years ago I took my HK 91 hunting and didn't get so many stares, I guess the scope and bi-pod made it look more a hit'm way out there gun. I just bought an AR. Likely I'll take my .38-55 lever action hunting this year but the AR might go with me one day. The AR is a reliable, accurate, light rifle. It will take Deer with the right bullet and with a hit to the vital area. Times are changing, or maybe have already changed.
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Old September 8, 2012, 11:42 AM   #33
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Agree that all will work well at the 70-75 yd range the OP is talking about.

Also the fact that we are discussing 'deer hunting' accuracy versus busting golf balls at the OP's hunting distance, I'd think the shotgun would work as well in the wooded setting.

If considering more tissue damage done by the larger slug equaling faster blood lose versus the smaller .223, wouldn't the larger slug be better? And knowing shot placement is paramount with anything we use and knowing we are all capable of pulling a shot or mis-judging distance etc. wouldn't the larger,heavier slug be more forgiving?
Example: the shotgun slug hitting bone in the shoulder which results in a kill versus the lighter .223 hitting the same bone and not having the impact or penetration to create a kill?

Again, we're talking deer hunting accuracy here and at 75yds. with a .223, we may be able to bust golf balls but with a shotgun we should be able to bust grapefruits. Which is deer hunting accuracy.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:02 PM   #34
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"[Brush busting" slugs are a myth]"

That's a Load if I ever head one Slugs bust through gawberries & palmettos bushes & HIT there mark ; )
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:04 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
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A 223 with a proper deer bullet won't have any trouble penetrating a deer leg/hip/shoulder bones.

Blood loss kills, lack of oxygen incapacitates. The deer will be on the ground in 5-15 seconds if you make a double lung shot. If you don't, blood loss will likely take several minutes to kill it. Even 60 seconds at 20-30mph is a LOOONG blood trail.

No, the slug is not "more forgiving" except that it has approximately 1/3 of an inch wider path. In other words, if you make a bad shot and miss the vitals by 1/3 of an inch, the slug woud graze the vitals where the 223 would miss. In other words, you're adding 1/3 of an inch of error around a 9 inch kill zone.

Misjudging distance at 75 yards? If you think it's 25 or 150, it's like an inch and a 1/2 difference impact. You have a 7,8,9 inch kill zone.

You can't compensate for bad shooting by using a bigger gun. You have to make a good shot. A bad shot with a 223 doesn't become a good shot with a 12ga. People need to get that idea out of their heads.

The 12ga is likely to contribute to bad shooting. Recoil is bad enough that most people will sight in (maybe!) and never shoot it again until a deer is standing there. Most people flinch like hell shooting shotguns. Of course, nobody is ever "that guy" but I can't believe how many guys I've seen jump out of their skin when the gun goes "click" instead of BOOM!

I used a 12ga on deer for many years. I did fine. I only wounded two. It will kill deer, yes it will. That doesn't mean it's first or second or third choice, if there's a choice. It's not ideal. Deer slugs are a compromise by design. Why compromise on purpose? Almost any properly loaded rifle is better.

I've had my say, no minds are changing, the conversations been had 1000 times before and will be again.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:31 PM   #36
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"Why compromise on purpose? Almost any properly loaded rifle is better."
If that "logic" were extended, no one would use black powder, or muzzle loaders, or handguns,or bows, or spears for hunting. Your points are well taken, but everything is a compromise, and bow hunters compromise on purpose. I have great respect for bow hunters and especially for hog hunters who use spears. That is one big compromise. Since the O/P asked for opinions your recommendation and opinions make sense, but the "compromise" comment makes no sense to me. Some people like a challenge and some people love shotguns. Big slow bullets/slugs make sense to me.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:34 PM   #37
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Make sure the .223 is legal in your state.
Not much to worry about. Last time I counted it was legal in 37 or 38 states. Most of the places where it is not legal are shotgun only. If rifles are legal in your state chances are good the 223 is legal.

Most of the places where it is not legal, and larger rifles are, also have game much larger than deer. Wyoming is a good example. You can also shoot elk, and moose and some very large bear there. While a properly loaded 223 is more than adequte for deer, it is not a moose round.

It still seem odd to me that it is legal to shoot a 1500 lb moose with a 243, but a 200 lb deer is illegal there with a 223.

Quote:
"[Brush busting" slugs are a myth]"

That's a Load if I ever head one Slugs bust through gawberries & palmettos bushes & HIT there mark ; )
You must still believe in Santa Clause, that myth was busted 40-50 years ago. The best way to shoot through brush is with a highly accurate gun with good optics so you can avoid hitting it. At these ranges either will kill a deer. The 223 greatly improves the odds of hitting the vitals.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:37 PM   #38
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Thanks for all of the input. Im going to use what ive been leaning towards all along, the Mini 14. I believe, as many of the posters do that shot placement is the most important thing. For me personally its not the AR, its the post 580 Mini 14. If you have not tried the post 580 model I dont want to hear a bunch of whining. There is NO problem with the accuracy of this rifle I assure you.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:44 PM   #39
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BTW, its not the AR platform that I have accuracy problems with, its the open sights on my particular AR. Besides, as I said before, I would feel like a complete dumb ass hunting with it.
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Old September 8, 2012, 07:45 PM   #40
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Another aspect, and maybe more important in this case, is which one do you feel more comfortable with. If you are in tune to the weapon that you have, your performance with it will be alot better. Doesn't matter what caliber it is.
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Old September 9, 2012, 09:01 PM   #41
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I've seen a regular 1oz slug hit a full grown deer in the left ham and end up just in side the right front shoulder. That's a solid 2 1/2-3 feet of penetration. Which is about 1 foot and a half more than you need.
I'm pretty sure you are as familiar with deer anatamy as I am, Peetza ..... and though my math skillz are not that great ....... lessee here .... 3 minus 1 1/2 is still 1 1/2 .....18 inches ...... 18 inches of wound track on a line from the left ham to the right shoulder does not quite reach the diaphram and vital territory .... if you are going after the "Texas Heart Shot", you need that 3 feet of penetration. Me, I'd rather not shoot than tear up guts that I'll have to be removing shortly......

"If liberating poo, and soon to be poo, once chewed food, urine, etc., from the neat confines of the intestines, stomach, and bladder, into the body cavity where it will come into contact with your food is part of your plan, then you have a bad plan."
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Old September 9, 2012, 09:18 PM   #42
Brian Pfleuger
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Yeah, not 18 more than was needed for THAT shot, THAT shot shouldn't have been taken, the shooter (not me) got lucky. I meant 18 inches more than you need for a normal side or quartering shot.
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Old September 9, 2012, 09:23 PM   #43
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Quote:
THAT shot shouldn't have been taken, .
Agreed.

Quote:
the shooter got lucky
If by lucky you mean lucky his meat did not spoil ....yeah.

If by lucky you mean he got to reach up into a body cavity full of bloody, foul smelling fecal matter ..... no, that's ..... unfortunate, maybe ...... but not lucky.
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Old September 9, 2012, 09:29 PM   #44
Brian Pfleuger
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Nah, I meant lucky the deer died quickly. Guess in a way the deer was luckier than the hunter.

Yeah, the gut job was... let's say nasty.

That shot, a couple inches either way would have been either a grazing wound along the left shoulder or a total gut shot.
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Old September 10, 2012, 05:17 AM   #45
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Personally, I just don't considered the "Texas heart shot" when deer hunting but have heard guys say they would take the shot if presented in the right circumstances.

It's to risky of a shot on hitting vitals. The deer may die but will die a cruel death. Too, the huge chance of tearing up hams doesn't work for me as there's just to much meat wasted.

As we all have probably have been around when a gut shot deer is being field dressed,it's not pleasant. Sadly, over the years I've had a few.

Our deer gun hunting group consists of mostly seasoned hunters. Gut shoot a deer and most likely you won't get a hand field dressing that deer. Kinda the price the shooter pays for making a bad shot.

The shooter gets to enjoy ALL that aroma by their lonesome while the guys stand upwind laughing/talking trash about 'making better hits on deer', 'you should practice shooting more' etc.... and, you can bet there will be a story or three about prior gut shot deer where so and so gut shot a deer and puked the whole time they where dressing it.

This kind of cuttin up while the unfortunate shooter is field dressing his gut shot deer kinda adds pressure to all us hunters before we pull the trigger. You gut shoot one and you know what you'll be facing.
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Old September 10, 2012, 11:59 AM   #46
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If you use a smoothbore with slugs you might want to put some Tru-Glo sights on it and sight it in precisely. A lot of shotguns don't shoot to point of aim using just a front bead.
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Old September 10, 2012, 12:23 PM   #47
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If you use a smoothbore with slugs you might want to put some Tru-Glo sights on it and sight it in precisely. A lot of shotguns don't shoot to point of aim using just a front bead.
Very good point PH

Most slug bbls.(smooth or rifled) have rifle sights for a reason. Your no longer shooting a spread pattern but a single projectile.

Have never used a rifled bbl. in 40+ yrs of shotgun hunting for deer. Been using the same old Rem. 1100 with the same old smoothbore bbl. with rifle sights and Remington sluggers for the last 27+-. Two years ago switched to Brenneke's cause my pattern at longer distances(50-75yds) tightened up just a bit. But, have never felt inferior in the woods shooting out to that distance with either slug.

I wouldn't attempt shots at that range with just a front bead.
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