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Old September 4, 2012, 01:13 PM   #1
BarryLee
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Potential Abuse of Virginia Permits

So, I read the attached article which basically details how people are obtaining Virginia no-resident permits via an on-line training source. So, initially this sounds good since it allows people to obtain permits for use in Virginia or that might be accepted by other states when they travel.

However, the potential issue is that some people are obtaining permits for use in their home state since the requirements are easier. For instance some Texas residents are obtaining Virginia permits with the intention of using it to carry in Texas since they have a reciprocal agreement.

Personally I don’t think we should have to obtain a permit/license to exercise our rights, but even so this whole thing seems a little fuzzy. For instance people basically receive no training related to their actual state laws. Even in Georgia where no training is required my local Probate Court gave me a copy of the applicable laws.

So, what do y’all think?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/03...o-get-permits/
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:37 PM   #2
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This came up last year, when a gun control shill (and Pulitzer prize winner) named John Crewdson wrote an article in which he described doing the same thing. However, I'm unclear as to whether or not an online training course fulfills the training requirement specified by Statute 790.06:
Quote:
1. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency of another state;
2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
3. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;
4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
5. Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;
6. Is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or a county or municipality of this state, unless such license has been revoked for cause; or
7. Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor
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Old September 4, 2012, 01:37 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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You believe that no permit should be required.

Do you believe that training in states laws should be required?

If not, I see no issue here.

If Texas has a problem with it, they can "fix" it.

BTW, here, a permit and "training" is required. The legal training was 15 minutes long and consisted of the assistant DA telling us that we really didn't need to carry because our area is safe.
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
You believe that no permit should be required.

Do you believe that training in states laws should be required?

If not, I see no issue here.

If Texas has a problem with it, they can "fix" it.
Personally I believe as a society we should operate with as few rules and regulations as possible, but I believe we should consistently enforce the ones we deem necessary. So, if Texas law requires certain training and this does indeed provide a workaround than Texas should “fix it”. However, that may mean Texas simplifies their training process and allows on-line training or does away with training requirements altogether.
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:41 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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I agree with you, for the most part, except I don't see it as "abuse". If Texas law requires training but ALSO recognizes VA permits without qualification, this too is Texas law, is it not?

As such, I see it as either/or. Texas requires training OR a permit which they recognize.

I don't see abuse, I see options.
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Old September 4, 2012, 02:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
except I don't see it as "abuse".
Point taken. I was looking for a quick title and that popped into my mind, but maybe I could have worded it better.
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Old September 4, 2012, 03:23 PM   #7
Gary L. Griffiths
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Quote:
I don't see abuse, I see options.
And of course, others see "loopholes."
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Old September 4, 2012, 03:50 PM   #8
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Some of us don't have the option of getting a CHL in our own state. For those of us states like UT,FL,AZ, and VA are a godsend! At least with my UT non-resident license I can carry when I travel.
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Old September 5, 2012, 10:51 PM   #9
hermannr
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TX recognizes WA. WA requires NO training, online or not...why should that be a problem. The only requirement we have is you must appear in person.
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Old September 6, 2012, 03:13 AM   #10
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I don't see it as abuse, either; and, this type of bypass has been very helpful to the residents of Philadelphia, in particular. PA is a shall issue state, but Philly is the only city not preempted by state law, and Philly's may-issue is not user friendly. So, many Philly residents have used PA reciprocity in conjunction with other states' non-res permits.
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Old September 6, 2012, 05:23 AM   #11
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Actually, Philadelphia IS preempted by PA state law, but the machine in Philadelphia just abuses the character clause in the shall issue statute to deny as many applicants as they can get away with denying.
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Old September 6, 2012, 07:23 AM   #12
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Is that new, AB? PA used to have a specific exemption for cities of the first class, which I think was defined as having a population over 1 million - and only Philly meets that criteria. Has this exemption changed, recently?
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Old September 6, 2012, 07:55 AM   #13
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Whatever you think of laws, clearly there is a direct correlation between the number of laws and the number of inhabitants. This has always been true since the days of Moses and Hammurabi. This has nothing to do with how well the laws are written or how well known the laws are. Early laws were written on stone tablets and placed in public view. This does not happen now.
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Old September 6, 2012, 08:24 AM   #14
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Clearly, history should provide the answer to the question, which itself is fuzzy. Is the question that the training may not be adequate? Is the question that the result of the online training is the cause of more accidents? Is the question just an implication from people who constantly fault any firearm law that makes legal carry easier?

I don't know what the question is. The only thing I know is that the efficacy of the online training will not be known until we have some empirical evidence either postitive or negative. I have read of opponents of the idea that the "relaxed" training standard has caused an increase in non-resident applications and awarding of non-resident licenses. They imply this is bad, but they cite no increase in incidents. The increase in licenses is what they see as bad.

So there's no answer because there's no clear question.
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Old September 6, 2012, 11:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Is that new, AB? PA used to have a specific exemption for cities of the first class, which I think was defined as having a population over 1 million - and only Philly meets that criteria. Has this exemption changed, recently?
The exception Philly has is for open carry [only]. If you can own a firearm, you may lawfully openly carry it on foot without a license. The exception to this is in a City of the First Class (1 million residents), you are required to have a license to Open Carry. Philly is the ONLY First Class city in PA.

The state has "preemption" meaning:
Quote:
(a) General rule. No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.
...and that includes Philly.

Aguila Blanca is correct that Philly does tend to abuse the character clause and deny issuing a LTCF for just about anything, including unpaid parking tickets.

To the OP: I do not see it as abuse as others have said...just another option.
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Old September 6, 2012, 12:32 PM   #16
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Not a big deal. When I lived in Idaho the local police told me to get a Washington permit because it was far easier (no shooting test, less time) and Idaho accepted them. In WA, just do the paperwork, get fingerprinted and wait for delivery in the mail (at least that's how it was several years ago).
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:35 AM   #17
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Isk: Still is the same in WA. Go to the Sheriff's office, fill out the app, pay the fee, get fingerprinted, and go home...the license will be in the mail, some counties are quicker than others...have heard that Kitsap Co will actually issue while you wait (same day). My county (Okanogan) mails them out the next day. Some counties intentially use the max allotted time (30 days for a resident, 60 days for a non-resident license)
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:35 PM   #18
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Is that new, AB? PA used to have a specific exemption for cities of the first class, which I think was defined as having a population over 1 million - and only Philly meets that criteria. Has this exemption changed, recently?
As ChuckS has explained, you are misunderstanding the PA law. PA has state preemption -- Philadelphia cannot (legally) enact any firearms laws more restrictive than state law. (This doesn't stop them from passing them, but they have no force if tested in court.) The "city of the first class" bit is in state law, applies only to Philadelphia (Pittsburgh has a looooong way to go before they qualify), and all it does is require that you have a LTCF (License to Carry Firerms) even for open carry, whereas everywhere else in PA open carry is legal without a LTCF.
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:31 PM   #19
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Florida does not have a reciprocity agreement for Virginia non resident permit holders

The state website also says that non resident holders should check with the reciprocal states to see if the honor non resident permits.

With a permit from Texas I reciprocity with about 27 states. If you are a permit holder from some states Texas recognizes those permits even though they don't honor the Texas permit for states such as California, New York , Hawaii

I really see no advantage to getting a Virginia non resident resident permit.
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:37 PM   #20
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This thread makes me appreciate the simple life here in the mountains of Virginia.

If I want to buy a gun, I fill out a form, pass an instant background check and walk out the door with it after I pay for it. It takes all of 10 or 15 minutes after the gun is chosen.

I can carry a gun, lay it in my seat to take it with me as long as it is in the open.

If I want concealed, I need to take a simple on-line gun safety course unless I am a current or former military or law enforcement member. I then go to the Clerk of the Court office, fill out a form and give them $50 for the paperwork and background check. I will receive the permit within 45 days (3 or 4 weeks is normal).
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:46 PM   #21
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Here in Texas its pretty much the same I can carry in my vehicle as long as its concealed, Except I carry the pistol in one place and my insurance cards in another place. If I want to carry it in the seat next tome I fold up a towel and lay it over it.
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:48 PM   #22
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AB, I stand partially corrected. Note that ChuckS agreed that the Philly CLEO's office uses any excuse to deny issue of permits.
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:55 PM   #23
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Even here in Texas in Harris county there was a DA who told the state of Texas he wasn't going to follow the state law on firearms and would continue to prosecute folks.
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Old September 8, 2012, 04:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
AB, I stand partially corrected. Note that ChuckS agreed that the Philly CLEO's office uses any excuse to deny issue of permits.
Yep, this is common knowledge around eastern PA and on PAFOA (the forum of the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association). Florida permits are especially popular in Philadelphia because they're easy to get and because they're valid for seven years.
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Old September 10, 2012, 10:08 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanka
Florida permits are especially popular in Philadelphia because they're easy to get
You to need to further explain this...."easy" in that if you're qualified and have fingerprint card and firearms training you WILL be issued a permit.

Pennsylvania has requirements for neither mandatory firearms training nor for fingerprinting. So you would think, that because the Florida license is more expensive and requires finger prints and training that is would be considered "harder" to get; but Philly is the only county in Pennsylvania, to my knowledge, that requires you to submit your fingerprints before your application is accepted for processing. In Philly, the License to Carry a Firearm is in effect: May Issue; despite the attempts by state legislators to make the application process uniform throughout the state just a few short years ago.

This disparity in treatment is one reason why folks get an out-of-state permit rather than their own states permit.
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