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Old September 8, 2012, 11:36 AM   #26
SL1
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Buck,

There is no use discussing this with you further. You were not here to see what I saw. You refuse to believe what I say. You fail to understand that a round-nose bullet does not make a bullet-diameter hole in flesh, because it pushes it aside and can make a quite narrow wound channel.

Since you have failed to tell us that you have shot ANY living organism with a subsonic round-nosed bullet or pellet, I see no reason for anybody to take your word as based on any sort of expertise. Especially since it is in direct contradiction to what so many others have experienced.

And, remember, we don't suddenly become better shots when we put aside the round-nosed bullets and pick-up the wadcutters and cup-points. (In fact more the opposite.) If bullet shape made no difference, then there should be as many stories about the one that got away when hit by wadcutters as there are about the ones that got away when hit by round-noses. But, there aren't.

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Old September 8, 2012, 12:01 PM   #27
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"Folks go on and on about the effectiveness of the bullets Elmer Keith used, but his shooting skills had much more to do with his hunting success than the type of bullet he used."
You decry "opinions" but Elmer Keith was "opinionated" by definition, especially when it came to bullets. He specified that "his" bullets should have at least a 70% meplat. Elmer Keith made his living telling other hunters what bullets,guns, and calibers to use.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
"Some folks attach some wounding ballistics fantasy to wadcutters - but it is just fantasy"...
Quote:
...Sorry, but I'll stick with expert opinion.
I have seen articles with pictures of the Ballistic Gelatin blocks with cavity comparisons that support the "expert opinions". It would seem that wound cavitation increases proportionally with the area of the meplat.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
"Folks go on and on about the effectiveness of the bullets Elmer Keith used, but his shooting skills had much more to do with his hunting success than the type of bullet he used."
You decry "opinions" but Elmer Keith was "opinionated" by definition, especially when it came to bullets. He specified that "his" bullets should have at least a 70% meplat. Elmer Keith made his living telling other hunters what bullets,guns, and calibers to use.
Some addendum to the cast "Elmer Bullet" (429421). As I remember, Elmer or others thought that the sharp semi-wadcutter shoulder would cut a clean-sharp wound through a game animal increasing hemorrhage. However, more current tests show that, because the meplat of the bullet causes cavitation in the wound, the sharp shoulder does not even come in contact with the flesh of the animal. However, because target paper is not sugject to cavitation, targets shot with Keith-type cast bullets have a sharper bullet hole than that produced by similar round-nose bullets.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:36 PM   #30
buck460XVR
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Since you have failed to tell us that you have shot ANY living organism with a subsonic round-nosed bullet or pellet, I see no reason for anybody to take your word as based on any sort of expertise. Especially since it is in direct contradiction to what so many others have experienced.

One does not need to be an expert to realize that a hole broadside, completely thru both lungs will kill an animal....regardless of shape....and yes I have killed many an animal with sub-sonic pellets. I grew up using BB and pellet guns killing rabbits and squirrels. Still do occasionally in my back yard when they get into the bird feeder or my blueberry bushes. Never mattered what the shape of the pellet was....as long as I hit them in the vitals. I'm bettin' the same would have been true for the squirrel you wounded and then watched suffer for weeks. I never claimed to be an expert, still don't. I generally respect others opinions, but I have no problem calling Bullcrap when I see it. Saying a flat nosed pellet in the guts is better than a spire point thru both lungs is just that......BS. I doubt that my statement that a bullet broadside thru both lungs, regardless of type shape will kill any animal is in contradiction to anybodies experience. Well, other than yours.


Quote:
"Folks go on and on about the effectiveness of the bullets Elmer Keith used, but his shooting skills had much more to do with his hunting success than the type of bullet he used."
You decry "opinions" but Elmer Keith was "opinionated" by definition, especially when it came to bullets. He specified that "his" bullets should have at least a 70% meplat. Elmer Keith made his living telling other hunters what bullets,guns, and calibers to use.

So..............in other words, you're saying his hunting success has more to do with bullet shape/type that his shooting/hunting skills? More BS. Yep, Elmer was opinionated, as are many of us. As I said before, I respect other folk's opinions and their right to use whatever they are confident and comfortable with whether it be for hunting or SD. I actually advise folks to do this. I do not tho, need to have them tell me that what they use can make up for poor shooting and hunting skills. I do not need them to tell me what is the best for me and my situations. I actually use large meplat hard cast bullets in some situations.......but I do not consider them the holy grail of bullets. Just another bullet type.
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Old September 8, 2012, 12:49 PM   #31
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"So..............in other words, you're saying his hunting success has more to do with bullet shape/type that his shooting/hunting skills?"
Yes and no. If you read his articles, he spends much time discussing bullet failures and what bullets work and why. He did use JSP bullets for hunting and his "Keith" bullets. If Elmer were alive today, he would be impressed at the premium bullets that are available. Hard cast bullets with large/max meplats are not for everybody.
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Old September 8, 2012, 01:30 PM   #32
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As I previously stated, no sense continuing a discussion with somebody who just insists that I am a liar.

But, to clarify the "suffering squirrel" situation: I did try to put it out of its misery. But I only got one more shot, with only its head visible, and had a clean miss when it moved just as I fired. This is a residential area, so opportunities for safe shots are severely limited. And the squirrel apparently learned real fast not to give me another shot (or to chew on my gutters).

What I learned from this was the using round-nosed pellets on squirrels is inhumane with this particular gun. With a .22 rimfire, round noses seem to work OK on squirrels. But, can't shoot those in my yard.

As for Buck killing squirrels with a "BB gun," now I am beginning to smell something. Rabbits and small birds are nowhere near as tough as squirrels. I would be real surprised it a typical BB gun would shoot clear through a squirrel.

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Old September 10, 2012, 06:33 PM   #33
buck460XVR
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Quote:
As I previously stated, no sense continuing a discussion with somebody who just insists that I am a liar.

No where did I call you a liar. I truly believe you THINK you hit the squirrel in both lungs. I'm only saying you didn't, or the squirrel would be dead....regardless of bullet shape.


Quote:
As for Buck killing squirrels with a "BB gun," now I am beginning to smell something. Rabbits and small birds are nowhere near as tough as squirrels. I would be real surprised it a typical BB gun would shoot clear through a squirrel.

Now, you're calling me a liar, LOL. Talk about the pot callin' the kettle black. First off......one does not need a pass thru to kill a squirrel...if you hit it in the vitals. Shoot one high in the trees with a .410 shotgun and none of the pellets will pass thru, but you still end up with a dead squirrel. Shoot a squirrel in the brains with a BB gun and you don't get a pass thru, but again, you end up with a dead squirrel. When I was a kid, the Crosman Pumpmaster 760 came out and every kid in the small rural town I lived in had one. In the summer, when squirrels and rabbits were out of season, we used 'em on rats at the local dump and in silos when the feed got below the doors and the rats were trapped. Believe me, dump rats are just as hard to kill as any squirrel. Here is a writeup about the pumpmaster from Wikipedia. Read it and then tell me what you smell.......crow maybe?

Quote:
The Crosman Pumpmaster 760, or Crosman 760 Pumpmaster, is an American-made multi-pump pneumatic Air Gun that is manufactured for target shooting, plinking, and small pest control. The Crosman 760 Pumpmaster is a BB gun with more than 12 million copies sold. It has a caliber of .177 and can shoot up to 625 ft/s. This gun may be used for hunting small pests, up to small game. The 760 Pumpmaster is very accurate for a weapon with a non-rifled barrel, and is capable of hitting a target at ranges of up to 50 yards. Firing a pellet at 600 feet per second (180 m/s), this weapon is able to effectively dispatch small game such as rabbit or squirrel at ranges not extending beyond 20 yards.
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Old September 11, 2012, 07:05 AM   #34
SL1
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Not continuing the discussion.

Only posted the original info so that some folks would have the chance to benefit from it. It was not the EXPECTED result and that is why I posted it.

You obviously can't benefit from it.

My work is done here.

Others can make-up their own minds what to believe, based on what you and I have already written.

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Old September 11, 2012, 07:18 PM   #35
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For a 240...
I'd prefer something along the lines of a RFP or WFN for lead, or a JSP for jacketed.

With rifle cartridges, a round nose generally aids expansion of jacketed bullets (rather than a spitzer profile). But, it doesn't help much with handgun cartridges.

I'd rather have a wide meplat flat point, than a round nose. ...But, accuracy isn't affected much, either way.


After their mention in a recent thread, I've really been eye-balling the Cast Performance 255 gr WFN. It looks like a tasty little treat.
But... I won't pay anything near what Midway wants. I need to find a similar bullet mold, and cast my own.

I suspect that the heavy nose would help maintain stability, but there's no way of knowing, without trying them.
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Old September 12, 2012, 05:05 AM   #36
Mike / Tx
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To the OP,

I am by and far no expert on cast, in fact I only recently in the past year began to shoot them in earnest. I specifically started to pour my own based upon a desire to feed my 454 and not pay the higher prices for bullets which would hold up to the pressures associated with it.

As such I purchased a Lee 452 300RF GC mold and went to town. I found that they put deer and hogs down with authority when pushed to the 1500 - 1650fps range.

Since then I have learned a ton about cast bullets and began to pour them in several other calibers. The overall theme is fit is king and lube is queen. As for fit, it is usually .001-.003 over bore size. THe thing is they need to also fit the cylinder as well. If your cylinder is small than your bore or if you have a small area ahead of the forcing cone where the barrel threads might have been screwed in a bit tight this causes problems.

Other than that I have not found that one type shoots expressly better than another. I have shot RFP, WFN, RN, and SWC's all with very acceptable accuracy out of the same revolvers. Slug your barrels and find the proper size, then play with lubes and you might find that one works better than another in your revolvers or you might find that, like I did, the Alox or mixes of it, will work in them all.

My latest passion has been to put together an alloy which will hold up to the velocities I am shooting and also alloy expansion without being overly brittle and allowing the noses to blow off or separate from the shank. I tested a small batch over the weekend and was VERY pleased with the resulting expansion. Granted this was shot into damp packed sugar sand, but it did what I had hoped for and held together. As far as the differences in the dirt and animal tissue it is a non issue as I now know that at least the noses are malleable enough to flow and not too brittle where they will break off.

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Old September 12, 2012, 05:30 PM   #37
fishbones182
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Mike/tx nice photos. On another note I had shot a hog that was 270lbs at 130 yards with my Winchester 300 mag. The shot went clean through both lungs and out the other side of the pig. There were pieces of lung in the dirt where he initially fell. The hog got up and ran about 100 yards before finally falling and staying put for good. The cover was so thick and wet i would never have found him if it were not for a good blood trail. I have shot hogs and had them run away to only die someplace in the woods when there were no blood trail to follow.
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